Why are we trying to make 1st level PCs tougher?

I've responded to this thread and feel that the question is best posed seperately rather than hijack that thread.

Briefly, the other thread is about having characters strong enough to not suffer a TPK in a particular adventure. The adventure is for first level characters and there's an EL 7 combat in there - though the adventure explicitly suggests that the PC be second level by this point. Still that's +5 CR.

Many suggestions have been made to improve the survivability of characters - Action Points and HP=Con to name two - but I see these as upping the arms race. Why not go the other way and keep matching low level characters with low level opponents?

What do you think? Is less more? Should first level PCs be tougher or should we make their opponents weaker?

I think, fundamentally, the game should be about having fun. Getting wiped out in early levels might be fun for some groups, but perhaps not for others. I think a growing sentiment is that early-level characters are generally not capable enough to be "adventurers". First-level adventures usually revolve around characters solving problems and/or fighting against creatures which are, on the whole, weaker than your average human being. We have Goblins and Kobolds who exist mostly to lower the bar and allow the relatively weak 1st level character to have a combat that is, essentially, "safe". Your average kobold will have few hp and a damage penalty, meaning they are less likely to kill a new character and/or will die in one blow. Additionally spellcasting classes usually have only one or two spells per day, etc, meaning the characters have few resources and, more importantly, FEW OPTIONS of what to do.

--fje

Quartz said:

What do you think? Is less more? Should first level PCs be tougher or should we make their opponents weaker?

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An EL7 encounter in a 1st-level adventure is a bit of an extreme case, but without a lot of reworking 1st-level PCs are just pretty easy to kill in one hit. My solution in D&D is to just not play 1st-level characters when I run games online, and my tabletop DMs have tendend to get the party through to 2nd level by no later than the second gaming session (and these are 3-4hr weeknights).

I'd prefer rules where 1st-level PCs are tougher and more competent, but I'm not sure how to do that in D&D (beyond Eberron action points) without causing unexpected side effects; I like how Star Wars Saga handles this.

You could always go with the Hackmaster "Kicker" approach... all PCs get an extra 20 hps to start... of course, so do most monsters... still makes encounters tough, but stops the "one hit one kill" idea.

drothgery said:

An EL7 encounter in a 1st-level adventure is a bit of an extreme case, but without a lot of reworking 1st-level PCs are just pretty easy to kill in one hit.

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Actually, 1st level PCs are harder to kill in one hit... since they are rarely fighting foes who can easily do 11+ damage, so they are more likely to run out of hit points and lay dying than higher level PCs who are facing foes that can't help but blow through the -1 to -10hp dying buffer in one strike!

That is why so much effort has gone into various ways of making things that little bit more survivable for high level characters, but relatively little thought has gone into 'improving' matters for 1st level characters. In fact I've only seen the latter discussed since SWSE came out, really.

Cheers

The big problem with 1st level characters, which isn't entirely a problem for "tough" classes (though even there it's not entirely mitigated) is that it's not only possible, it's entirely likely that a single hit will drop the PC to negatives. A 1st level commoner with straight 10s still does 1d8 damage with several different simple weapons. A 1st level warrior (or, deity-forbid, a fighter) can easily do 1d12 or 2d6, with up to +7 damage (half-orc with 18 base strength wielding 2-handed weapon).

Even in the case of wizards and sorcerers, that's just not right. It's not fun. A one-hit kill should be a rare threat at best.

simplest solution is always to get them to 2nd level as soon as possible (or even start them there...) and that takes you (mostly) out of the one hit kill category

So you spend the first one or two sessions being very scared... It's character building!

Only change I would consider is the optional death at -con rule (min 10), which gives those extra few rounds to get to a downed PC

i've not seen a PC death before 6th level in our groups, and although one is homebrew the others are published AP's, so its not just a case of kindly GM'ing

Asmor said:

The big problem with 1st level characters, which isn't entirely a problem for "tough" classes (though even there it's not entirely mitigated) is that it's not only possible, it's entirely likely that a single hit will drop the PC to negatives. A 1st level commoner with straight 10s still does 1d8 damage with several different simple weapons. A 1st level warrior (or, deity-forbid, a fighter) can easily do 1d12 or 2d6, with up to +7 damage (half-orc with 18 base strength wielding 2-handed weapon).

Even in the case of wizards and sorcerers, that's just not right. It's not fun. A one-hit kill should be a rare threat at best.

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Not to mention the critical effect. It was mentioned by the designers almost as soon as 3E hit that using a battleaxe against players was risking them a lot a low levels. A x3 multiplier can drop a 1st level fighter from full strength to outright dead in one blow.

My real solution is to have low level adventures be character interaction heavy. Especially since spellcasters use up their combat abilities very fast as low levels (not as fast as AD&D 1 spell and you're done magic-users, but still fast).

I think as much of this is the fault of the players, not the game design. I have only really even seen PC death at early levels in games where people play with the approach of "Must kill enemy." In games where espionage, puzzles, and even traps are used as the challenges, it is possible to gain XP without killing yourself to get it. [And yes, even appriate level traps are effetive. A trap is unlikely to bite again. It'll unlikely be able to coup de grace a character. And while it may well take a player into negatives, once the trap is sprung the rest of the part can focus on stabalizing the character and even healing them.]

When the game becomes monothematic - I.E. Experience comes through killing the orcs - first level characters are much mroe fragile. The best way to avoid the fragility of having a small number of hitpoints is to put them in a situation where only one attack is likely and when failure may mean unconscious for one character but not for the whole party.

Nonlethal Force said:

I think as much of this is the fault of the players, not the game design. I have only really even seen PC death at early levels in games where people play with the approach of "Must kill enemy."

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It could just as easily be a bad GM. Some GM's take the approach of "You must kill the guardian to move forward. Or a GM who simply rolls well. An orc with a greatclub is bad news, but even a lone goblin Warrior who rolls a 20, confirms, and maxes with his battleaxe is looking at (1d8+1)*3 = 27 HP, which would take a full health Barbarian with 20 Con from 17 to -10 in one blow.

It's funny, but in Men & Magic a Fighting-Man had 1d8 HP, and swords did 1-6 damage. There were no bonuses either way for Str or Con. You simply couldn't die from as single blow. Now we have greatswords that do 2d6+3-7, with a ~5% chance of double that, but HP have not nearly advanced as quickly.

Nonlethal Force said:

The best way to avoid the fragility of having a small number of hit points is to put them in a situation where only one attack is likely and when failure may mean unconscious for one character but not for the whole party.

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In other words, the best way to avoid dying is to avoid danger. Not every adventurous. Allowing PC's to use an action point to be "left for dead" rather than "dead" allows them to actually have adventures, and get over their head a bit, without handing out the 3d6 and fresh character sheets too often.