4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

Hey all!

Okay, this is a thread to talk about peoples views on 4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook. Whether or not they want products updated, revised, or simply left alone.

So what do we know about 4th Edition so far.

Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.

However, I do sell my pdfs on my own (not in tandem with Mongoose) so I am not sure how that side of things will work.

We don't know a lot about the system except that its going to be a lot less clumsy and less rules heavy. I've tried my best to boil epic gaming down to the core in order to simplify Epic/Immortal gaming, but even I can only go so far. So at this point I would be leaning towards embracing a new system if it really simplified a lot of things.

Remember that shorter stat blocks and greater ease of building means books (especially Monster books) will get done faster and require less errata. Or alternately that books can have more monsters and gods (pound for pound) than they otherwise could.

For the moment we can but speculate as to whats going to happen.

But I am curious to hear peoples thoughts on the matter.

Are any of you opposed to embracing 4th Edition, especially if its simpler and 'better'* mechanics?

*from the presentation sounds like all the classes are going to be better balanced and more fun.

It also appears core D&D will scale to 30th-level, which is fantastic news.

Also it seems Orcus will be in the Monster Manual - thats awesome news for 'epic' gamers, assuming that term still applies (unless of course its that Fiendish Codex Orcus - ouch).

Obviously none of this changes Ascension or Gods & Monsters at this point. I wonder would anyone be interested in a 4th Edition Epic Bestiary: Volume One revision? What might be possible would be to update Bestiary Volume 1 and join it with Bestiary Volume 2.

Another possibility could be that I do two versions of each book, a 3.5 compatible version and a 4th Edition version.

Again, I'm just brainstorming out loud, so give me your views.

I think for all our sakes (and yours, really) you should avoid trying to make 2 versions of each book.

I'm wholly in favor of the new edition, and the idea of merging Bestiary 1 with Bestiary 2 and just 4thEdding the whole lot sounds like a good idea to me.

In terms of Ascension... I'm not sure progress past 30th-level is supported in the way that it was implied in the ELH. I think that 4th Ed simply doesn't account for it and won't support it.
That being the potential case, I don't know what room there will be for the IHB. You might have to contrive your own progressions after 30th, and that could be messy.

Hiya mate!

Pssthpok said:

I think for all our sakes (and yours, really) you should avoid trying to make 2 versions of each book.

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Okay, okay!

Pssthpok said:

I'm wholly in favor of the new edition, and the idea of merging Bestiary 1 with Bestiary 2 and just 4thEdding the whole lot sounds like a good idea to me.

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Pssthpok said:

In terms of Ascension... I'm not sure progress past 30th-level is supported in the way that it was implied in the ELH. I think that 4th Ed simply doesn't account for it and won't support it.

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All the better for me then.

Pssthpok said:

That being the potential case, I don't know what room there will be for the IHB. You might have to contrive your own progressions after 30th, and that could be messy.

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It appears at first glance as if 4th Ed. characters may be more powerful than their 3/3.5 counterparts, thus a slightly lower level/HD distribution for immortals may be better.

As for creating my own progressions, I think that could easily be done using the various powers of Ascension and some new material.

In fact I really like the idea of building say the Fighter Class for instance, out to 100th-level or whatever. I think that will really simplify character creation.

Or perhaps I could create my own epic 'Prestige' Classes to fill those gaps rather than extend the core classes - whatever they will be. That would give me better control over things. Dimensional Prestige Classes for sidereals sound cool.

It appears at first glance as if 4th Ed. characters may be more powerful than their 3/3.5 counterparts, thus a slightly lower level/HD distribution for immortals may be better.

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It seems so, yes... perhaps a lean back towards the 3.0 DDG would be in order? While there were no HD limits, really, there were averages. Something like +10 maximum HD per tier (demigods could go to 40th, lesser deities 50th, and so on, with greater deities being able to reach as high as 70th level).

Or perhaps I could create my own epic 'Prestige' Classes to fill those gaps rather than extend the core classes - whatever they will be. That would give me better control over things. Dimensional Prestige Classes for sidereals sound cool.

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Hmm, Epic Fighter being a special PrC? Interesting.
Next would be Divine Fighter, then Sidereal/Dimensional Fighter I assume?

I will never buy nor support 4th edition material. I think the system is fine the way it is and any further meddling is just an attempt to milk more money out of the rich and stupid lapdogs of the WOTC franchise. I am fully against any material that isn't 3.5 or earlier. There are already thousands of books out there for 3.5 and it would be nonsensical and pointless (not to mention extremely greedy) of WOTC to make 4.0, an edition they initially denied they would ever make. 4.0 will undoubtedly not be compatible with 3.5. Which would render everyones collections of 3.0 and 3.5 material obsolete. To even claim they could be compatible would be a mistake at best and an outright lie at worst. To further complicate an already complicated game in the name of false simplicity is . The last thing anyone needs are a bunch of rich bastards making new books that tell us all that our current libraries are perhaps the biggest waste of money since the beginning of time. It's enough to make many gamers pull out their hair at the roots. Besides they aren't releasing this garbage until 2008. But hey, if you want to completely screw up The Immortal's Handbook...be my guest. It's ur show afterall. Just don't expect everyone to show up with money in hand for a product that's changes to conform with the corporate crap of 4.0...which will undoubtedly become 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, ect. until the popularity of purchasing reprinted crap becomes nonexistent and all diehard fans of 3.0/3.5 material become completely disillusioned with the concept of gaming as a whole. You have a fine product as it is, you just need to stop second guessing yourself based on the actions of the lemmings and drones of WOTC. While we all understand the need to appeal to consumers, you will find that most consumers will not want to buy 4.0. The vast majority of 4.0 consumers will be teenagers that weren't even alive when Gary Gygax still owned TSR. And the vast majority of them will only be interested in it for the short term and not the long haul. 4.0 will be yet another stupid fad that will be wiped clean off the earth in just short of a decade. While all the real gamers will still be playing 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3.0, and 3.5.

Upper_Krust said:

Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.

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That information is somewhat outdated, and wrong. The evil, money-grubbing greed demons at WotC, for the third time, will be providing a free license, the OGL, and the SRD to fit, which be extension should also be free. The future of the d20 STL is still open, but since using it has become something of a negative, it might simply be abandoned. The license fee was an idea that was entertained, but dropped since it ultimately does not ensure quality products.

Link - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905801 This thread discusses and confirms (on a later page) the OGL status.

Upper Krust said:

Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.

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Where is that quoted? The article I read on ICV2 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html) states the OGL will remain.

To be honest, after waiting a year from the "release date" of Ascension, the last thing I'd want to add in is /more/ reasons to require you to have to go back over old work rather than type up and release new stuff!

There's a worry here that you could end up the Duke Nukem Forever of the D20 world: acomputer game put on hold so many times that, every few years, they have to abandon all work and start again because their starting engine is so outdated it's useless. Considering how long the Immortals Handbook has been brewing, I'd far rather it just finally came out and was complete (even if it was for an outdated edition) than have me still waiting here a decade later for the final books, only to be told it's going to be 5E compliant now! ;-)

I would carry on with 3.5 for the moment. If nothign else, without seeing the new edition you can't tell (a) if it interests you, and the rest of your buyers; (b) how awkward 3.X to 4th Ed conversion will be; and (c) how the differing game world assumptions might affect your product.

Stick with 3.5. Everything I've read and seen about 4E fills me with dread; the entire purpose of it is to dumb things down, and force us to buy every book twice, to use that dumbass online play thing.

online play...it's just more Evercrack. We need that like we need to have our genitalia removed and shoved through a blender. Like I stated earlier. IT'S A HUGE WASTE OF OUR TIME AND MONEY!!!

3.5 is definitely my limit. Anything beyond that is pure bullshiit.