Does poison take effect if bite did zero damage?

Phoenix8008 · Aug 21, 2007

I am DMing an adventure and a monstrous centipede attacked and hit a character for zero damage(1d6-1, rolled a 1, so zero damage). Does the character still need to make a Fort save versus the poison if they took no damage from the attack? I was going to say it was a scratch, (enough to let the poison in the blood stream but not enough for a point of damage) but then I wasn't sure. So I decided to come here and ask the experts.

irdeggman · Aug 21, 2007

I'd no.

SRD:

POISON
When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw. If he fails, he takes the poison’s initial damage (usually ability damage). Even if he succeeds, he typically faces more damage 1 minute later, which he can also avoid with a successful Fortitude saving throw.

Injury: This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.

The MM entry for the creature doesn't state otherwise so I would go with the general rule above.

Nifft · Aug 21, 2007

Phoenix8008 said:
I am DMing an adventure and a monstrous centipede attacked and hit a character for zero damage(1d6-1, rolled a 1, so zero damage).

Re-read this section: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#damage

Phoenix8008 said:
Does the character still need to make a Fort save versus the poison if they took no damage from the attack?

If a character actually takes 0 damage, he does not need to save vs. poison. However, the only way that's possible is via DR (7th level Barbarian, for example).

Cheers, -- N

MarkB · Aug 21, 2007

Well, there are two separate issues here. First, doing zero damage because of a negative damage modifier:

SRD said:
Minimum Damage

If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

So, your attack actually inflicted 1 point of damage, not zero, and thus will also apply the poison effect to the target.

Second, whether an attack that deals zero damage also inflicts a poison effect:

SRD said:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

So no, an attack that deals zero damage because that damage was negated does not inflict an accompanying poison effect upon the subject.

Slaved · Aug 21, 2007

If the poison was a contact based poison then it would work even if the damage was reduced to 0.

I do not know of any creatures that have contact poison in their bite but if they did for some reason then it would still work.

frankthedm · Aug 21, 2007

Slaved said:
I do not know of any creatures that have contact poison in their bite but if they did for some reason then it would still work.

Mummies have a Contact based disease for thier slam.

Phoenix8008 · Aug 21, 2007

Okay, the poison was injury based and the character in question does not have DR, so the final answer is that she will take 1 HP of damage and need a Fort save versus the poison.

Thanks to all for their help!

Notmousse · Aug 21, 2007

If memory serves the assumption is that all poisons delivered with a bite are injury poisons, but there may be some creatures that have contact poison as a special quality.

Kmart Kommando · Aug 22, 2007

and maybe in 4th edition, the carrion crawler's tentacle poison will actually get qualified as poison.

my crusader did the maneuver that gives DR5/adamantine for one round, then took 3 hits from some ghouls' claws and bites, none of which did any damage through my DR, and my DM made me roll the saves anyway. the classic zombie/ghoul/infected person movies all work by breaking skin, which hit points may or may not be representing, which is another thread entirely, but when the rare instance comes up that you're immune to a special attack, don't make them roll anyway. :\
ditto with some poison arrows that failed to get through my DR, but I made the saves anyway. They need to clean up the language and put in "...and takes damage from.." in all entries with special attack-based abilities.

a ghoul can't just choose to touch you, do a touch attack, and paralyze you, so no claw damage = no paralysis IMO.

irdeggman · Aug 22, 2007

Kmart Kommando said:
and maybe in 4th edition, the carrion crawler's tentacle poison will actually get qualified as poison.

my crusader did the maneuver that gives DR5/adamantine for one round, then took 3 hits from some ghouls' claws and bites, none of which did any damage through my DR, and my DM made me roll the saves anyway. the classic zombie/ghoul/infected person movies all work by breaking skin, which hit points may or may not be representing, which is another thread entirely, but when the rare instance comes up that you're immune to a special attack, don't make them roll anyway. :\
ditto with some poison arrows that failed to get through my DR, but I made the saves anyway. They need to clean up the language and put in "...and takes damage from.." in all entries with special attack-based abilities.
a ghoul can't just choose to touch you, do a touch attack, and paralyze you, so no claw damage = no paralysis IMO.

Did he have it be a fail has the result thing or was it just rolll (and you automatically make the save).

I don't see any reason that a DM couldn't make players roll saving throws even if they are immune to the results. It adds "tension" and a level of excitement to the game that otherwise might be missing. If the DM simply says "you are immune and don't need to roll" then where is the "suspense" in the game - it becomes too much like a computer game and less of a RPG one, IMO. Now this doesn't mean a DM "has" to do this but I can see advantages to doing it especially for the first few times that type of creature is encountered.

Does poison take effect if bite did zero damage?

Phoenix8008

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