What about skills ?

Turanil · Jan 29, 2008

I perused several pages of threads, but apparently couldn't find anything pertaining to skills in 4e. Can someone tell me how skills are supposed to work in 4e? What's the mechanic, what skills, etc. Thanks.

Plane Sailing · Jan 29, 2008

At the moment best guess is that it looks quite a lot like SWSE with half level + ability modifier as your base chance in all skills, and you can pick a certain number of skills which have a +5 bonus on top of that (take a look at the example pit fiend skills, for instance).

Now, I seem to remember designers saying at an early point that it was similar to but not exactly the same as the SWSE skill system (but it is difficult to spot the difference from what we've been told up to now)

Vayden · Jan 29, 2008

Based on hints they've dropped, as well as the Pit Fiend stats they just released, we're all assuming they work the same way as in Star Wars Saga Edition. That is to say, you don't have skill points anymore - every skill roll is [ability mod]+[1/2 char level]. In addition, each class gets a certain number of "trained skills" which give a +5, as well as allowing extra uses (track is "trained only" for survival skill), and there will probably be a skill focus feat for an additional +5.

Also, they said in R&C that the skills are being significantly cut down (again, consistent w/ SWSE) - for example, hide, move silently, and sleight of hand are all now "stealth".

*edit* ninja got there first.

small pumpkin man · Jan 29, 2008

SW SE didn't allow bonuses except the +5 from trained, and the +5 from skill focus, since there have been a bunch of other bonuses shown, we know this to be untrue in 4e, otherwise, yeah, it looks about the same.

-edit, and the list is different, but that's so obvious I assumed that's not what they meant.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Jan 29, 2008

Turanil said:
I perused several pages of threads, but apparently couldn't find anything pertaining to skills in 4e. Can someone tell me how skills are supposed to work in 4e? What's the mechanic, what skills, etc. Thanks.

The evidence so far suggests that the system is very similar to the Starwars Saga system.
The few mentions of skills indicate a close similarity, and the latest monster entry (Pit Fiend) also showed something along the lines of Starwars Saga entry.

It appears as if there were different skills, for example:
There is still Bluff & Intimidate (Saga had Deception that covered Bluff, Disguise and something else, and Persuasion, which covered Diplomacy and Intimidate).
In addition, the Category (subskill) type of skills seem to be gone (like Knowledge (Religion) => Religion).

The basic modifier for skills seems to be:
Level / 2 + ability score + 5 for training, plus additional modifiers (possibly another +5 for skill focus?) yet unknown. (Though there was at least one feat that gave a bonus to a skill)

It's unclear so far how skill points/selection are spent.
In Starwars, you got [Class Specific Number]+Int of skills you could get training in, and you could only get that training in class skills. Multiclassing and levelling didn't add new skills, you needed to spents feats for it.

Many classes and feats allowed to gain rerolls for skills, instead of getting higher bonuses.

Turanil · Jan 29, 2008

Reroll rather than a bonus seems an interesting idea.

In any case, and since this system comes from SWsaga, has anyone used it? How does it work? At first sight it gives me the impression that anyone would success most, if not all, skill checks with this system (unless DC are significantly harder)...

Also, I think to have heard that skill resolution is no more a yes/no outcome, but the higher the successful roll, the more/better you would do. Any hint about that?

Plane Sailing · Jan 29, 2008

Turanil said:
Reroll rather than a bonus seems an interesting idea.

In any case, and since this system comes from SWsaga, has anyone used it? How does it work? At first sight it gives me the impression that anyone would success most, if not all, skill checks with this system (unless DC are significantly harder)...

Also, I think to have heard that skill resolution is no more a yes/no outcome, but the higher the successful roll, the more/better you would do. Any hint about that?

Rerolls rather than a bonus are great, because it gives a much better chance of getting a good result without lifting the cap on the result you can achieve.

Works really nicely in SWSE. One of the great things is that it means everyone in the party can participate in stuff at higher levels. In SW the whole party can jump onto the speeder bikes or swim under the river (and the guys who have trained are better). Compare this with 3e where the guys that haven't put skill points into it basically can't really succeed at all. One of the side effects of this is that the DM can put in more interesting situations, knowing that everyone can participate in balancing across the ledge or whatever. Another of the side effects is that people can focus on a little used skill and their focus won't be wasted (someone who maxes out swimming in 3e might never get to use the skill because unless other people can swim, there just won't be the swimming adventures around unless his DM runs him a solo adventure at some point!). Also note in the Pit Fiend that the knowledge religion DCs are higher than you would have seen in 3e (DCs 25-35)

I've heard talk about more granular results of skill checks, but not seen any details on that yet that I recall.

Cheers

arscott · Jan 29, 2008

SW rerolls: the bonus from a reroll is pretty variable, even if you assume the character knows the target number in advance and isn't willing to risk failure for the chance at a more spectacular success (which, in-game, is fairly rare). Still, if you make those assumptions, then the chart below shows about how much of an improvement a reroll provides.

[SBLOCK]

Code:

If the Player		Then a reroll is
needs to roll		equivalent to a
(Before modifiers):	bonus of:

2			+1
3			+2
4			+3
5			+3
6			+4
7			+4
8			+4
9			+5
10			+5
11			+5
12			+5
13			+5
14			+4
15			+4
16			+4
17			+3
18			+3
19			+2
20			+1

[/SBLOCK]

A simpler way of putting it: a character that always keeps an 11 or better and rerolls a 10 or worse averages 3 points better than a character with no reroll. A character that can keep either result (much rarer in SWSE--usually you have to take the second roll) is better off always rerolling, which will result in an average that is 4.4 points better.

TerraDave · Jan 29, 2008

We know there are fewer skills, and we have heard mention of quite a few of them. Group skills, like the knowledge group, profession group, and so on are out. Total numbers is supposed to be around 20.

Below is the list of skills that have actually been mentioned that I know of. Probably 4 or 5 more to be added. (climb, swim, handle animal/ride, athletics?)

Acrobatics
Arcane
Deception
Diplomacy
Dungeoneering
History
Nature
Religion
Streetwise
Insight
Intimidate
Perception
Stealth
Thievery
Treat Injury/Heal (not sure on name)

Flobby · Jan 29, 2008

I seem to remember seeing Bluff, Spot, and Listen though... So I wonder if there will be a Deception and Perception skill.
(Doesn't the Pit Fiend have a Bluff skill?)