Scared about squares

So I have been reading a lot about 4E the last few days. I really like most of what I see, but one thing sets me off more than anything - squares. Grids, slides, adjacent foes and all the other wargaming aspects. I play Warhammer, where I get to do all this, but I prefer my D&D entirely without. At most we draw a quick sketch of a battle scene and play it from there.

I've played D&D for 15 years, and we have never used anything but our imaginations and common sense when describing/enacting combats. Its all about details and DM/Player interaction.

Now, having read some of the abilities of characters, it is almost implied that we need miniatures and sterile min/maxing through the use of these, to be able to use many of the spells/abilities/powers provided.

My players and I have no intention of ever using a battle grid and miniatures, so I guess my question is: will our group even be able to play 4th Edition now that all this "tactical movement and wargaming fun!!!!" has become almost a default part of the game?

Playtesters, if any of you don't use minis etc. (I have found shockingly few who are against the use of these on the boards), is the game fun without, or should we just stick to previous editions and other games?

Edit: Reading the new Warlord abilities, it seems intricately linked to grid maps and rough to house-rule into a non-mini PoV

firstly, this thread already exists. Secondly, could you explain what about Pin the Foe and Iron Dragon Charge require the use of a battlemat? I'm not seeing it.

Thirdly, the problem I have with this view is that for us, 3.x combat takes so long, and is such a large part of many modules/playstyles, and yet isn't particularly tactical or that fun. I can totally get the idea that you don't want tactical wargame craziness, I just really don't think 3.x is the answer to that.

I am not a playtester, but it has been stated on several occassions, by either playtesters or WoTC staffers, that if you could play 3.5 without minis and grid, you could play 4e. Now I can't find the link, but I am sure someone more organized than me can.

Cheers,

PS: god påske!

I can't find any other threads either, because I can't for the life of me find the search feature :S

For the record, I never mentioned that my alternative to 4e was 3e. We play a lot of different games, D&D one of them.

If anyone could direct me to these articles/discussions etc. I'd greatly appreciate it.

And God Påske indeed

small pumpkin man said:

Secondly, could you explain what about Pin the Foe and Iron Dragon Charge require the use of a battlemat? I'm not seeing it.

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Well, "Effect: Until the end of the encounter, the target cannot shift if at least two of your allies (or you and one ally) are adjacent to it." has several tactical elements to it that seems to imply a battlemap and lots of detailed positioning. Perhaps I have a lower threshold for seeing this than others do, but to me, that wording could be taken right out of a tabletop wargame, which to me is not how I like my role-playing games.

ParagonofVirtue said:

I can't find any other threads either, because I can't for the life of me find the search feature :S

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That's because you got to cough up the dough to use the search feature

ParagonofVirtue said:

For the record, I never mentioned that my alternative to 4e was 3e. We play a lot of different games, D&D one of them.

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Yes, but since you have come to the biggest and baddest DND-site on the whole interweb, most people will assume just that, until told otherwise.

D&D had always used wargame elements, since it was spawned from a wargame. The rules have always assumed the use of a battle grid, because it's the easiest way to represent the battles and have them play out fairly. No questions about how many foes your Fireball hits, no questions about if your Fighter can reach Goblin #1 or not. Some people don't like using the grid, and have found ways to manage. 4E won't be any different in this regard.

In either episode 20 or 21 of the D&D Podcast (the two newest Mailbag episodes) that got your same question. The reply was basically "if you did it with 3.5 or any other edition of the game, it won't be any harder in 4th".

You must embrace the Square. The Square shall set you free, for it is within the Square that we see truth, knowledge, and squareness. Surrender yourself to its powers and soon... um, you'll have corners? Not really sure where I was going with this.

Anyways, I'm actually excited about the use of miniatures because I always disliked my group's fast-and-loose style when it came to movement and positioning. Plus I'm a ridiculous hoarder so this gives me an excuse to buy lots of miniatures. If you look around you can find bulk D&D minis for $0.50 each or less - I recently bought over 100 assorted minis from eBay for under $25 - and there are plenty of choices for my PCs to use to represent their characters. For mobs I'll use the extras, or even some old Magic counters (glass beads) I've got lying around.

ParagonofVirtue said:

Well, "Effect: Until the end of the encounter, the target cannot shift if at least two of your allies (or you and one ally) are adjacent to it." has several tactical elements to it that seems to imply a battlemap and lots of detailed positioning. Perhaps I have a lower threshold for seeing this than others do, but to me, that wording could be taken right out of a tabletop wargame, which to me is not how I like my role-playing games.

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Not to rain on your parade, (okay that's a lie) but "the wording kinda sounds like a wargame" doesn't restrict you to playing it with a battlemat, what restricts you to playing on a battlemat is abilities that require precise positioning, Pin the Foe essentially comes down to "Untill the end of the encounter, if at least two party members are in melee with the target, it cannot leave melee without provoking OAs." Something like "in melee" is not something that requires precise positioning.

I mean, I see where people are coming from with White Raven Onslaught, although not using a battlemat doesn't make the ability difficult to adjudicate, it just makes it far less helpful, just like AoO builds in 3.x were much less useful without mat.

ParagonofVirtue said:

I can't find any other threads either, because I can't for the life of me find the search feature :S

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Yeah, I know, I only mentioned that particular one because it's still on the front page, and I was just reading it

ParagonofVirtue said:

For the record, I never mentioned that my alternative to 4e was 3e. We play a lot of different games, D&D one of them.

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I was mostly ranting, it didn't have that much to do with you . I should point out the only RPG you mentioned in the OP was D&D, so I just assumed. (I'm noticing now, you didn't mention the warlord powers either, boh) Obviously, if you're coming from BECMI or Storyteller you might have a bit of trouble with playing without a mat, and you might find it annoying, but it does seem to be possible.

ParagonofVirtue said:

If anyone could direct me to these articles/discussions etc. I'd greatly appreciate it.

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The latest Wizards podcast has a quick discussion about it, you can find it on the Wizards site, there's a brief transcript here about halfway down if you don't feel like listening to the entire thing.

Basically, the deal is "it's similar to 3rd", as in you can, but it requires fudging, trust, and a good memory.

If you play D&D already how do you adjudicate using weapons or spells that have very limited range?

How did you describe or adjudicate flanking?

How did you describe or adjudicate cover?

How did you adjudicate movement, charging, etc.?

In other words, even though the 4e terminology has some changes, it does not change the way you would have described or adjudicated those effects anyway.

Either the player describes his action and the DM says the affected creature(s) are out of range or the player asks before describing his action and gets the same answer.

So I don't see why it would be any harder to adjudicate or describe 4e than any other version of D&D.