The Knight reloaded (homebrew)

Here's my 2nd attempt at the knight class as a melee martial controller. The knight is an elite honorable warrior skilled at fighting masses of foes with intimidation and strategy, whose powers are magnified when on horseback.

I'm eager for your feedback and critique. Bear with me while I update this post. In the meantime check out the updated .pdf file below. Thanks!

[sblock=DESIGN NOTES]
I wanted to attempt a Knight class for a couple reasons:

- It's a unique martial concept that fits in well with 4e's "more monsters" design philosophy. While the Fighter keeps the other PCs safe and whittles away at foes, the Warlord enhances the PCs effectiveness, the Ranger takes out key foes at range, and the Rogue sneaks behind enemy lines to make a critical strike, the Knight hinders foes with low morale, mass tactics, and knightly challenges which break up their organization, thus making everyone's job easier.

- Inspired by Dark080Matter's "Dragoon: A truly martial controller" post on Gleemax, I believe it's possible to create an exciting martial controller class that doesn't break common sense. My version of the Knight is a Strategist/Melee Multi-Hitter who relies on Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation.

- The Knight is a popular concept which fits the D&D genre and has been attempted before in PHB2 (as a defender with some controller power).

- Hit Points in 4e represent a character's ability to "stay in the fight" and not just physical hardiness, and thus allow for morale effects which affect HP.

- It provides interesting role-playing opportunities: Is the knight belonging to a monastic-militant order not doing god's will like a paladin? How far does the crown knight's loyalty to liege and country go? What happens when the knight errant is reunited with his love? Does the knight wrongfully imperil or misuse his retainers? Would the knight misuse his skill at mass combat against a peasant uprising? Can the knight reconcile the interests of the ruling class with the demands of the people? Will the knight teach the fighter the meaning of honor by example? How does the knight deal with the rogue who breaks the chivalric code at every turn?

- Unlike the Wizard, which exerts control from afar, the Knight exerts control in the thick of the battle by constantly keeping a "safety zone" around him. I think it doesn't step on the Defender's toes because the Knight relies on pushing most foes away from (perhaps into the Defender's path?).

Edits for 2nd version:
* Deleted >Retainers< feature in favor of >Knightly Bearing<
* Simplified >Declare Arena< feature
* Tied >Regal Aura: Intimidating Presence< (renamed) to Intimidate skill
* Changed >Regal Aura: Sunder Morale< into a communication/formation breaking feature
* Included "Morale" as a power keyword
* A creature can only be targetted by one power with "Challenge" keyword at a time
* Used Keterys' "Solo Pit Fiend" example as inspiration for the challenge powers which inflict damage on a failed save
* Deleted >Arming Squire< feat in favor of >My Honor is My Life<
* Changed >Foe Shield< and added a new utility power >Elusive Target<
[/sblock]

[sblock=THE KNIGHT]
Knight

“I swear upon my liege’s honor, your life shall pay the forfeit of your treachery!”

Role: Controller
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Strength, Intelligence, Charisma

Armor Training: Plate, Heavy Shield +others?
Weapon Proficiencies: Longsword, Lance +others?
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

Trained Skills: 4
Class Skills: Athletics, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, Religion

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 7 + Constitution modifier

Build Options: Crown Knight, Order Knight, Knight Errant
Class Features: Cataphract, Chivalric Code, Declare Arena, Knightly Bearing, Regal Aura: Frightening Presence, Regal Aura: Sunder Morale

Knights are elite cavalry controlling the battlefield. They keep lesser foes at bay while challenging rivals to honorable combat in the midst of battle, intimidate masses of foes with their regal aura, and leverage opponents to their advantage.

As a knight, though you face vicious rivals and slander of your family name, you know your honor will define you. You could be the loyal but dissenting voice in a tyrant’s court, upstart victor in the rigged annual jousting tournament, a squire prematurely dubbed in the wake of your mentor’s death, the persecuted heir apparent with a cadre of loyalists, or a romantic wanderer haunted by sins from a past life seeking redemption.

Donning your gleaming armor atop your proud steed, you survey the demesnes of your forefathers, ready to answer any stain against your honor on the field of battle. Will the bards not sing of your valor this day?

Characteristics: Exploiting your foes’ strategic weaknesses and numbers allows you the full benefit of your powers. Likewise, the more you can prepare for a battle, the more control you have over the battlefield.
Religion: Knights prefer deities of battle, honor, and nobility including Bahamut, Kord, and Erathis. Evil knights often worship Bane.
Races: Those who value personal honor and service to a higher cause make ideal knights, including dwarves, dragonborn, and eladrin.
[/sblock]

[sblock=CREATING A KNIGHT]
CREATING A KNIGHT
There are three knight builds: The Crown Knight exerts the authority of the monarch’s office by intimidating foes. The Order Knight is sworn to uphold the tenets of a chivalric
military order. The Knight Errant wanders the land performing great deeds while pursuing an elusive quest.

Crown Knight
You serve a monarch, either believing in the monarch’s fitness to rule, right to rule, or striving to minimize the tyrannies of the monarch’s rule. You rely on powers that intimidate your foes and break their morale. Many of your skills and powers are Charisma based, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second – it increases your damage and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Intelligence is a good third ability, especially if you choose powers
Suggested Feat: Regal Aura: Mighty Challenge*
Suggested Skills: Diplomacy, History, Insight, Intimidate
Suggested At-Will Powers: Disarm, Test of Grace
Suggested Encounter Power: Dominating Blow
Suggested Daily Power: Noble’s Challenge

Order Knight
You belong to a chivalric military order, and fight to uphold the chivalric code. Standing by your brethren through thick and thin, you have given your life to serving the order. You rely on powers that threaten large areas of the battlefield and disrupt your foes, allowing you to wreck havoc upon them in the aftermath. Charisma is important for many of your powers, so it should be your highest ability score. Strength and Intelligence are equally important to you; Strength because it will help you win in a “fair fight”, and Intelligence because it allows you to take full advantage of your threatening powers.
Suggested Feat: My Honor is My Life*
Suggested Skills: Diplomacy, Heal, History, Religion
Suggested At-Will Powers: Test of Honor, Threatening Stance
Suggested Encounter Power: Majestic Charge
Suggested Daily Power: Onslaught

Knight Errant
You travel the land on a quest, ever invoking the name of your beloved who you shall some day be reunited with. You might be a young squire trying to prove yourself a knight or you might be on an extended quest for your liege. You rely on powers that use enemies against themselves and strip them of any advantages they might have over you so that you can prove yourself on equal terms. Strength is your most important ability, as your powers invite conflict. Intelligence and Charisma are equally important for you, as you rely on skillful planning as much as bravado against powerful foes.
Suggested Feat: Beloved*
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Diplomacy, Endurance, History
Suggested At-Will Powers: Pressing Strike, Test of Mettle
Suggested Encounter Power: Even the Field
Suggested Daily Power: Foe Shield
[/sblock]

[sblock=KNIGHT CLASS FEATURES]
KNIGHT CLASS FEATURES

Cataphract
You begin with an armored warhorse. When mounted, you gain a bonus to certain knight powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) Cataphract has on them.

Chivalric Code
A knight observes a code of chivalry. In battle, you may never flank, attack a flat-footed opponent, or deal lethal damage to a helpless foe. Additionally, you are expected to honor your oaths, serve as a shining example of etiquette and courtly love, and show courage in battle. Failure to do so results in a loss of the Regal Aura class feature until atonement is made, and may also have role-playing repercussions.

Declare Arena
You manipulate the enemy’s position to your advantage.
At Will * Martial
Minor Action Close burst 3
Target: A number of enemies within burst equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Effect: Slide each of the targets one square in any direction.
Cataphract: If you are mounted, slide the targets up to 2 squares.

Knightly Bearing
Your imposing countenance keeps lesser foes at bay.
At Will * Martial, Morale, Weapon
Minor Action, Close burst 3
Target: All minion or normal foes in area.
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Effect: Push the targets outside of the burst to squares of your choosing.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain your bearing indefinitely. Any minion or normal foe attempting to get closer than 3 squares to you is subject to the attack.

Regal Aura: Intimidating Presence
Invoking your liege and forefathers, you strike fear into the hearts of your foes.
Encounter * Martial, Morale
Special: You can use Intimidating Presence or Sunder Morale once per encounter, but not two or more of these in the same encounter.
Minor Action, Close burst 10
Target: All foes within burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Effect: As per successful Intimidate check; save ends

Regal Aura: Sunder Morale
Your shocking speech disrupts your foes’ communication, leaving them disorganized.
Encounter * Martial, Morale
Special: You can use Intimidating Presence or Sunder Morale once per encounter, but not two or more of these in the same encounter.
Minor Action, Close burst 10
Target: All foes within burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Effect: Lose all leadership, morale, and formation bonuses; save ends.
[/sblock]

[sblock=KNIGHT POWERS]
KNIGHT POWERS
Your powers are valiant exploits relying on your courage, strategy, and prowess. Some of your powers require you to use a weapon. If a power does not state “weapon” then you don’t need to have a weapon at hand.

[sblock=AT-WILL POWERS]
Disarm
Knight Attack 1
You send your opponent’s weapon hurtling out of their grasp.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: Target is disarmed, and you slide their lost weapon a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.
Miss: Target gains combat advantage against you.

Pressing Strike
Knight Attack 1
You put pressure on your foe, not allowing them a moment to regroup.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: melee vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage,
Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: Cannot use Second Wind; save ends.
Cataphract: Gain +2 on your Secondary Attack.

Test of Grace
Knight Attack 1
You challenge the composure of your foes with your perfect poise.
At-Will * Martial, Challenge
Standard Action Area burst 10
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma damage if the target attacks you or your allies. If the target’s HP is reduced to 0 or less, they surrender.
Miss: Target is immune to your powers with the “challenge” keyword for the rest of the encounter.

Test of Honor
Knight Attack 1
You challenge your shameful foes to fight honorably.
At-Will * Martial, Challenge
Standard Action Area burst 10
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma damage if the target flanks, attacks a flat-footed opponent, deals lethal damage to a helpless foe, or flees the battle. If the target’s HP is reduced to 0 or less, they surrender.
Miss: Target gets combat advantage against you.

Test of Mettle
Knight Attack 1
You challenge your foes to prove themselves against your steel.
At-Will * Martial, Challenge
Standard Action Area burst 10
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma damage unless the target attacks you on its next turn. If the target’s HP is reduced to 0 or less, they surrender.
Miss: Target gets partial concealment from you.

Threatening Stance
Knight Attack 1
You adopt a threatening stance, using wide arcs of attack to face off your foes.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Area burst 1 + weapon’s reach (centered on you)
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: Subject to an opportunity attack.
Special: Your reach becomes threatening for that round, and you can sustain your threatening reach as a minor action
Cataphract: Your reach + 1 is threatening.
[/sblock]

[sblock=ENCOUNTER POWERS]
Dominating Blow
Knight Attack 1
Your terrible blow momentarily shocks nearby enemies.
Encounter * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Reliable: If you miss with this power, you do not expend its use.
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: melee vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage
Secondary Target: Close burst 2
Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: Dazed; save ends.
Special: If you reduce the target to 0 HP, bloodied opponents are staggered instead.
Cataphract: +2 on the Secondary Attack.

Even the Field
Knight Attack 1
Your perceptive strike strips your foe of a tactical advantage.
Encounter * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Reliable: If you miss with this power, you do not expend its use.
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: melee vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage, and the target loses one tactical advantage of your choice (e.g. flanking, combat advantage, cover).
Cataphract: If you are mounted, strip the foe of all tactical advantages.

Oath-Binding
Knight Utility 2
When you swear an oath, it rings with the grave sincerity of your honor.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Prerequisite: You must uphold the Chivalric Code.
Effect: All present immediately realize your honest intention and do not doubt your ability to follow through on what you say you’ll do. Take 20 on a Diplomacy check.

Majestic Charge
Knight Attack 1
Your fearless charge sends the enemy scattering.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Prerequisite: You must be charging
Primary Target: All creatures in path of your charge
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: Slide the target 1 square, and they do not get an opportunity attack.
Miss: The target becomes your secondary target and your charge ends.
Secondary Target: One creature
Secondary Attack: melee +1 (for charge) vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage
Cataphract: +2 with your primary attack, and on a hit slide the target falls prone as they dive out of your warhorse’s way.

Ready Stance
Knight Utility 2
You alert for danger, and prepared to take advantage of the enemy’s mistakes.
Encounter * Martial
Standard Action, Personal
Effect: Until the start of your next turn, you gain an additional number of Opportunity Attacks equal to your Intelligence modifier. In addition, Opportunity Attacks are provoked from you by any movement within any of the squares you threaten, even just to enter or leave those squares.
[/sblock]

[sblock=DAILY POWERS]
Foe Shield
Knight Attack 1
You use nearby enemies as a shield against attacks.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage, and all enemies within a number of squares of target equal to your Intelligence provide you and your allies with cover and partial concealment from ranged and reach attacks.
Miss: Slide the target you missed 1 square, and the target now provides you and your allies with cover and partial concealment from ranged and reach attacks.
Sustain: Minor Action, and you maintain the target(s) as cover and partial concealment.

Noble’s Challenge
Knight Attack 1
You call out to an enemy in the heat of battle, challenging them to face you.
Daily * Martial, Challenge
Standard Action Ranged 10
Prerequisite: Target cannot be immobilized or stunned.
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2d6 + Charisma damage unless the target moves to engage you in one-on-one combat. All minions cease attacking you as long as none of your allies fight against the target with you.
Special: If the target refuses to engage you, regardless of whether you hit or miss, all enemy minions suffer 4 damage.

Onslaught
Knight Attack 1
You lash out against the enemy, driving them back in terror.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close: Cone 5
Target: All creatures within cone
Attack: melee vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength damage and target is frightened (Will vs. Charisma save ends)
Hit or Miss: Your reach is threatened for the remainder of the round, and you may sustain your threatened reach as a minor action.
Special: At the end of the maneuver you are positioned 2 squares forward in the direction of the attack. Push any intervening models up to 1 square.
[/sblock]
[/sblock]

[sblock=KNIGHT FEATS]
KNIGHT FEATS

Arming Squire
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisite: Retainers class feature
You are served in the field by a squire (a minion 3 levels beneath you, with a number of hit points equal to your level). Each round, you may perform a number of minor actions equal to your Charisma modifier as free actions – these tasks are handled by your squire. For example, a knight with a +3 Charisma modifier could have his squire take his sword, nock a bow, and equip him with the bow as free actions.

Beloved
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisite: Power with the “challenge” keyword
When you win a challenge (issued using a power with the “challenge” keyword) in the name of your beloved, you may make an extra use of second wind.

Regal Aura: Mighty Challenge
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisite: Regal Aura class feature
Benefit: Discharge a use of the Regal Aura power for that encounter as a free action to boost a power with the “challenge” keyword, inflicting an additional 2d6 damage on a hit if the target refuses to meet your challenge, and increasing collateral damage to minions (if any) by half your level
[/sblock]

Here are my suggestions:


I like the fact that he has neat "controller-type" abilities (Declare Arena). Tie it to 1/2 level+Cha modifier to stay within the rules that have already been established. So:

Declare Arena (At-Will)
Minor

Even the Field (Encounter); special - refreshes if Knight misses
Standard

Leverage Opposition (Daily)
Standard

Threatening Reach (At-Will)
Standard

Regal Aura, while a nice ability, is too powerful as a 1st level ongoing effect. Split it into two abilities

Regal Aura - Frightening Presence (Encounter)
Standard
Cha attack vs. Will; all Minions within a number of squares equal to 1/2 level+CHA Modifier are frightened. Save Ends

Regal Aura - Sunder Morale (Daily)
Standard
Cha vs. Will; disallows the use of Second Wind by any lower-level foes within a number of squares equal to 1/2 level+CHA modifier. Save ends.

Retainers is a really cool ability. Turn them into Minions who operate three levels lower than the primary character that have a HP total equal to the level of the Knight.

The idea of using a mounted character class to create a martial controller has its appeal. Still, I think the practical limitations of a mount in typical D&D combat environments (Dungeons!) seem to make this difficult in practice...

Moniker said:

Here are my suggestions:

Click to expand...

Thanks, helpful feedback. Nice job of breaking down Regal Aura!

One of the things I was trying to do with >Knight Tactics< was to allow for 3 different methods of dealing with a mass of foes built in as a class feature (like Rogue Tactics)...

>Even the Field< is about eliminating tactical advantages from a mass of foes.
>Leverage Opposition< is about using the mass of foes for cover from each other.
>Threatening Reach< is about keeping a mass of foes away from you and your allies.

While making these into powers is neat, it does leave a void in a critical class feature. Perhaps I could power down >Even the Field< and >Leverage Opposition<?

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

The idea of using a mounted character class to create a martial controller has its appeal. Still, I think the practical limitations of a mount in typical D&D combat environments (Dungeons!) seem to make this difficult in practice...

Click to expand...

I made the same observation, and have designed the knight so that it's not dependent on having a mount to control the battlefield, and that the mount just provides bonuses. IOW, a mounted knight is even more effective at controlling the battlefield.

Quickleaf said:

Thanks, helpful feedback. Nice job of breaking down Regal Aura!

One of the things I was trying to do with >Knight Tactics< was to allow for 3 different methods of dealing with a mass of foes built in as a class feature (like Rogue Tactics)...

>Even the Field< is about eliminating tactical advantages from a mass of foes.
>Leverage Opposition< is about using the mass of foes for cover from each other.
>Threatening Reach< is about keeping a mass of foes away from you and your allies.

While making these into powers is neat, it does leave a void in a critical class feature. Perhaps I could power down >Even the Field< and >Leverage Opposition<?


I made the same observation, and have designed the knight so that it's not dependent on having a mount to control the battlefield, and that the mount just provides bonuses. IOW, a mounted knight is even more effective at controlling the battlefield.

Click to expand...

Maybe a mounted knight might be a good example of a "hybrid" character. While mounted, he migh make a good Controller or Striker, but when dismounted, he's a Defender.

Yeah, it's tempting to make it a hybrid role, and it's possible I'll end up there, but I'm going to focus as much as possible on control of the battlefield. At least that way it'll be more distinct from the fighter even if there end up being defender-esque elements.

Also, I've updated the class features and added a couple powers for review.

So the rough draft of the knight is done and I'd like your feedback!

Quickleaf said:

My version of the Knight is a Strategist/Melee Multi-Hitter who relies on Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation.

Click to expand...

You invoked The Form. We came. Now you must come with us.
(Actually, you've inspired me to add some additional entries to it.)

Martial Controller Form Reply, ver. 2.1:

You have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):

1. [ ] Trap-Setter
2. [ ] Grenade Tosser
3. [ ] Exotic Weapon Master
4. [ ] Trick-Shot Master
5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler
6. [X] Melee Multiattacker
7. [X] Faster-than-Human Movement
8. [X] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation
9. [X] Minion Master

Your idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:

1. [ ] Powers require too much set up time to use in a newly entered area.
2. [ ] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.
3. [ ] Powers rely on items (or moves) that can be used by anyone in the manner described, even a child.
4. [X] Powers rely on equipment which cannot be used in extremely common adventuring environments.
5. [X] Powers rely on severe suspension of disbelief about monster / NPC behavior.
6. [ ] Concept is a one-trick wonder that does not lend itself to 30 levels of powers.
7. [?] Concept, in the abstract, belongs better in one of the other three roles.
8. [ ] Concept's specific core mechanics are better associated with another role.
9. [ ] Concept relies on a core mechanic that, fundamentally, is not battlefield control.
10. [ ] Concept does not effectively provide battlefield control against multiple opponents.
11. [?] Concept cannot control enemies before they reach the party.
12. [X] Concept may be required to put itself in harm's way too much, leading either to quick death or to stepping on the Defender's toes.

Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:

1. [X] Powers are prone to absurd, game-breaking results.
2. [ ] Powers violate physics and common sense (even at Heroic tier).
3. [ ] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.
4. [ ] Powers rely on items that are magical in origin, diluting the Martial flavor.
5. [ ] Concept requires a technology level that makes it unsuited for many games.
6. [ ] Concept is "gimmicky" in execution and is too specific to offer versatility in PC creation.
7. [X] Reliance on minions may make the class take up an unfair amount of time at the table by making it a "party of one."

----------------------------------------

Rather than dismiss such a long and lovingly written write-up in the true, pithy spirit of the form, I feel obligated to explain further. Your concept suffers from three major flaws:

1. Reliance on horses to close the range to provide control against distant enemies when horses cannot be used in many dungeons or other similar environments. It's an innovative idea, but deeply flawed. After all, there's a reason that they're taking away the mount from the Paladin.
2. Use of non-magical mind-control that takes control of enemies firmly out of the hands of the DM / their players and which produces effects that are completely out of proportion with non-magical abilities.
3. The usual blurring-the-line problems that all melee Controllers have: fragility vs. not rendering Defenders irrelevant and severely limited range of effect without outdoing the Striker at movement.
4. The horse and, worse, the minions may grant the class too many actions, making it a "party of one" that could render the rest of the party irrelevant (and bored during the class's turns). Until we see how WotC resolves the familiar / companion issues, I'd hesitate to give minions as a class feature. (Also, how are they replaced if/when they fall?)

I think that #2 is the biggest problem. You can force a creature to surrender with several powers belonging to this class. Any creature. Including fanatics, berserkers, thralls, creatures that don't speak Common, and even creatures that have no minds -- with no logical, non-magical basis for doing so.

This goes beyond the Fighter's Combat Challenge which represents the Fighters attempt to physically interfere with their enemy's attacks and concentration. This goes into the realm of, "If you do this, I get to take over your actions." Worse, this could be done to PCs as well. Can you imagine the whining? "But Thragor Bloodthirst kowtows to NO man!"

This is a problem with all non-magical mind-control. It makes little sense against many, many enemies even without the language barrier. (Also, you failed to tag several of these as fear effects which then runs the risk of leaving the class useless in many situations. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.)

Also, Declare Arena completely defies logic. How exactly does it make squares into difficult terrain at-will, even accounting for all the mind-control problems above? Do opponents have any way of knowing which squares are marked? If so, how? Are allies affected?

Finally, one final non-Mt/C nitpick: The Knight's Code kind of restricts what kind of characters you can make with this class. Where the Black Knight, or the Knight of Chaos?

I have to say that I have no problem with the fear/intimidation-type effects that Quickleaf used. I don't see that as "taking control" of a PC or NPC, especially since the "you have to attack me" power gives a choice of hp loss or doing what the knight wants. Moreover, I don't care so much about the magical/mundane divide for several reasons, including the fact that there's no morale mechanic in D&D, as well as the fact that martial power is supposed to allow effectively supernatural abilities in 4e.

As to the mount: I agree that it's bad for dungeon adventuring, but the class is so cool that I don't really care. It's unlikely to be taken by players in most campaigns, but it's not like this is something that WotC is publishing and expecting us to buy anyway. It's a homebrew, and IMO a pretty good one!

Somehow, I forgot about the minions issue in my last post! Corrected.

ruleslaywer said:

I don't see that as "taking control" of a PC or NPC, especially since the "you have to attack me" power gives a choice of hp loss or doing what the knight wants. Moreover, I don't care so much about the magical/mundane divide for several reasons, including the fact that there's no morale mechanic in D&D, as well as the fact that martial power is supposed to allow effectively supernatural abilities in 4e.

Click to expand...

At higher tiers, only. Martial is still supposed to be physically possible at lower levels, and even when it steps beyond that, it's supposed to logically stem from the physical actions of the person. Some of these effects just have no logical basis for functioning. How am I supposed to talk you into taking damage and surrendering if you don't do what I want if you don't even understand me?