Question/Theory about standard-points-buy

I'm setting up a D&D game (3.5ed) online using the standard points buy system (28 points to spend on Abilities). When I mentioned to another DM, whom I happen to consider something of a mentor when it comes to moderating D&D, that I intended to use the points-buy he advised me to use a different system of his own devising in order to address 'unfairness issues' concerning character gen. My players are not overly enamoured with the idea, and I have to admit I'm a bit confused by the whole thing (and have probably explained it wrong to them). I thought I'd put it 'out there' in this forum and canvas opinions from other players/DMs. I'm interested to hear what folks think, and would appreciate non-aggressive, non-sarcastic responses. I'm merely a bit flummoxed by the whole thing and worry I'm missing the point somewhere along the line (for all I know this has been raised before elsewhere). Further, this isn't my proposal of a house rule (though it is one he uses), which is why I've posted this here. I'd just like to hear what others think.

Suffice to say, I'm sticking with the RAW for character generation using points-buy and not my friend's suggestion. I'm more interested in playing the game than rewriting the rules, but I must admit this does intrigue me.

Anyway, the premise goes as follows:

When you generate a character using the standard points buy system all Abilities start at 8. Normally you would buy your points as follows: 9 (costs 1pt value) 10 (costs 2pts value) 11 (costs 3pts value) 12 (costs 4pts value) 13 (costs 5pts value) 14 (costs 6pts value) then values rise, 15 (costs 8pts value), 16 (costs 10pts value), 17 (costs 13pts value) and 18 (costs 16pts value). The issue is with value vs Ability points.

Adding a +2 racial bonus to an ability score of 16 effectively gives a sizeable discount on the value of Ability points. Ok, it's a racial bonus, but the discount still applies. The bonus is no longer singularly representative of racial benefit but representative of a greater (and unfair) racial benefit when juxtaposed against points value gains. It only happens with the points buy system, not dice rolls, because it's not about racial adjustments for racial characteristics or random rolling, its about playing the points values for a stronger character.

I get the feeling the advantages are incredibly subtle, so much so that most players won't even know they're doing it. But given the fact that a Tough Campaign points buy is 28 and a High Level Campaign points buy is 32, that 4 point difference, value remember, not Ability points, makes the difference negligible.

My friend's house-rule goes thusly:
Racial adjustments are not added to the Ability score itself, but translate instead as a 'discount' or a 'charge' on the value of the points purchased, either being determined as the exact opposite of the original modifier (so a +2 bonus becomes a -2 discount, and a -2 penalty becomes a +2 charge). So if an Elf, with his +2 racial bonus for Dex, buys his way up to a Dex of 16, the cost would normally be 10pts out of his allocated 28. His racial bonus isn't added to Dex afterward to give Dex 18, but instead translates as a -2 discount on the cost of his Ability from his bank of 28. So instead of paying 10pts, he pays 8. Dex remains at 16, but he has an extra 2pt value to play with.

Conversely, if the Elf wants to bring his Con (-2 penalty) up to 16, it will cost him 12pts, not 10, because his -2 penalty translates as a +2 charge on the value of the points.

I've probably explained it wrong, but this would seem to be the jist of it.

It is an interesting way of looking at things. However, I agree with you about the subtlety, and that it's probably too much work for far too small a payoff.

The case of the Elf is interesting, but the case of the surly Dwarf is perhaps more illustrative. Under normal point buy, the Dwarf's dump stat (Charisma) starts at 6. He has no real motivation to bump it, so it stays at 6. Under the complicated system, the Dwarf's Charisma starts at 8, and isn't bumped, so it stays at 8 -- he suffers no penalty relative to a Human who chooses to use Charisma as his dump stat.

Cheers, -- N

My general rule of thumb is "never use a house rule unless there's a problem that really needs solving." As Nifft says, this is a case where there's way too much work for a very small, questionable payoff. I don't think it's needed.

If this is really a problem for you, there's a simple solution: You apply the racial modifiers first, then start doing point buy. So, an half-orc starts with STR 10, INT 6 and CHA 6. There: all bonuses and penalties have the same "cost".

roguerouge said:

If this is really a problem for you, there's a simple solution: You apply the racial modifiers first, then start doing point buy. So, an half-orc starts with STR 10, INT 6 and CHA 6. There: all bonuses and penalties have the same "cost".

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As an extra bonus, this would lead to the exact same result as the system proposed by the OP's friend. Start with STR 10? You have to pay 2 points less for increasing STR to any number, because the 2 first points are already "paid for" by the racial bonus. Start with INT 6? You have to pay 2 points more to increase INT to any number, because you have to pay to get it up to 8 first.

As long as the racial bonus does not go above +6, the systems are exactly equivalent. But not equivalent to standard point buy, which I don't see as unbalanced in the first place.

Dlsharrock said:

Adding a +2 racial bonus to an ability score of 16 effectively gives a sizeable discount on the value of Ability points. Ok, it's a racial bonus, but the discount still applies. The bonus is no longer singularly representative of racial benefit but representative of a greater (and unfair) racial benefit when juxtaposed against points value gains. It only happens with the points buy system, not dice rolls, because it's not about racial adjustments for racial characteristics or random rolling, its about playing the points values for a stronger character.

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Yes, using Point Buy, choosing a race whose bonuses apply to the ability score you want to have highest synergises very well. But then, this is no less true using standard rolling - if you roll your stats, then particularly high rolls have higher value due to rarity, just as they have higher value due to cost in point-buy. This is not a disparity in fairness between point-buy and die-roll ability generation, and therefore there is no need to correct anything when switching between one method and another.

Elethiomel said:

As an extra bonus, this would lead to the exact same result as the system proposed by the OP's friend. Start with STR 10? You have to pay 2 points less for increasing STR to any number, because the 2 first points are already "paid for" by the racial bonus. Start with INT 6? You have to pay 2 points more to increase INT to any number, because you have to pay to get it up to 8 first.

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Essentially, yes, but I thought mine might be less confusing.

Nifft said:

it's probably too much work for far too small a payoff.

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This.

As it is, point-buy already provides a decent bump in "fairness", which is to say that it provides a level field for the players in determining their characters stats before EVERY OTHER CHOICE THEY MAKE regarding their characters knocks it all into a cocked hat. The added difficulty provides no benefit for the effort (a measure by which ALL house rules should be judged, and against which MANY fail).

roguerouge said:

If this is really a problem for you, there's a simple solution: You apply the racial modifiers first

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As I see it, RAW stipulates the value of points increases when the Ability rises above 14, not according to the number of points you apply, so I think in this case (adding racial modifiers first) you'd need to complicate things by including another house rule configuring new sliding scales of value depending on the bonus or penalty in question, otherwise all racial modifiers are nullified (ie, it costs an Elf the same to get to 16 with his Dex bonus as a human with no Dex bonus- translating as discount/charge on the Ability points themselves and not the value).

Otherwise I agree with the views presented. My take was that the playing field *isn't* level, but the imbalance is rather subtle and isn't really worth the house rule, particularly if it annoys players!

The problem is that you get a 2 point discount on one ability and a 2 point penalty on another, translating into an even total. If I want a character with a 16 dex and a 12 constitution, using the alternate system, the cost would be the same for an elf (8 points for dex, 6 for con) or a human (10 for dex, 4 for con.) At that point, there is no point having a racial modifier at all. If you want to house rule that races have no ability modifiers, that's fine. This system actually penalizes the half-orc unfairly, as he would effectively have 26 points to purchase abilities, having a single +2 bonus and two -2 penalties.

Personally, I don't think there's any problem with making it easier for an elf to be exceptionally dextrous (meaning fewer weak stats in other areas) than a human, but making it harder (costlier) for that elf to be as physically robust as the human. That makes sense to me.