Tier-crossing quests

Here's a thought: to cross from one level tier (from Heroic to Paragon, from Paragon to Epic) a character must fulfill a quest appropriate to his class and stature. So to 'open up' Paragon paths and level advancement beyond 10th, a character must do something that sets him up as a legendary figure in his profession. This quest could be tailored to a character's specific destiny, or it merely be something that would be enough to establish anyone as a legendary embodiment of the class ideal.

For example, to advance beyond 10th level a Fighter must achieve something like becoming the Champion of the Planar Arena, defeating the archtroll Lednerg in single combat or serving a tour of duty in the Invincible Legion of Mt. Celestia. The DM would make these paths known at some point as the tier limit was coming within striking distance, and the characters for their final levels in the tier could undertake the various quests needed to open the Paragon paths for one another. NPCs often never achieve these things because they lack a properly heroic band, or the will or opportunity to seek them out (though they may secretly dream of such accomplishments); those few who do have obviously earned their reputations.

The Epic quests would be similar, except more arcane and probably each containing at least one impossible-sounding clause.

I got that in mind, but maybe not so artificial. The end of the first episode of the campaign will mean the characters can now advance to the Paragon Path.
Maybe they saved the country from an evil tyrant, now they got to move on bigger things.

Korgoth said:

For example, to advance beyond 10th level a Fighter must achieve something like becoming the Champion of the Planar Arena, defeating the archtroll Lednerg in single combat or serving a tour of duty in the Invincible Legion of Mt. Celestia. The DM would make these paths known at some point as the tier limit was coming within striking distance, and the characters for their final levels in the tier could undertake the various quests needed to open the Paragon paths for one another...

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Interesting flavour. This type of thing could be cool. A problem is that whoever had their path started first would be more powerful and a greater asset to the party and possibly level up faster. This, if done well, could be cool and fun. I just think it'd be hard to do in-game. I was thinking of having out of game roleplay to start a player down his/her paragon path. If the party needed to complete one unifying quest to ascend to their path or destiny - that could be cool.

If you do give it a whirl, post about how it goes, 'kay?

My thought on this is more that at the Paragon tier, the PCs become 'larger than life'. They'll have become know for particular deeds, etc, which will inflate as the stories are retold and retold. In time (as they reach 11th level) the inflated versions become true.

This works out well with the dramatic restrictions on Raise Dead. Basically, reality finds the people it needs for tasks based on who is available and close to being able to accomplish the task; it then alters them to the degree required, even to the point of being out of the reach of 'mere mortals'. Aside from the heroes, there should be relatively few humanoids in the Paragon tier. Nobility, generals, notable magic-users, guild leaders, in varying degrees, are the paragons. The vast majority of people never get here. So you have Johan the Paladin, who cleansed the Duchy of Ervan from the undead scourge, after having guarded the city of Ryen from the inital waves. He becomes know throughout the kingdom as a hero, a protector of the people from evil things. When a greater threat arises, reality(or the gods) decides he is worthy of the challenge, and he becomes a Justic(i)ar, granting him even greater abilities to protect the kingdom.

Basically, I feel that it's not so much that the PCs go on a quest to become paragons; but that their actions from 1-10.9 have already proved them qualified. Assyr, god of the Kingdom of Sult, has seen your deeds and needs further effort from you; this is why you are more than one once were.

I feel the same about the Epic Destinies. The gods don't need you to prove yourself to the gods to enable you to take on an epic destiny... the destiny is pushed on you by the gods, who've been watching you from 1-20.

Yeah, I suspect I'll go the same route as Cirex and Alkiera here. I think these are excellent points at which to spring a major plot reversal. The heroes rescue the princess at the end of level 10, then, at the start of level 11, they begin the quest to destroy the Death Sta, er, wizard's tower.

Chad

Cirex said:

I got that in mind, but maybe not so artificial. The end of the first episode of the campaign will mean the characters can now advance to the Paragon Path.
Maybe they saved the country from an evil tyrant, now they got to move on bigger things.

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That strikes me as... quick. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'episode'

Alkiera said:

I feel the same about the Epic Destinies. The gods don't need you to prove yourself to the gods to enable you to take on an epic destiny... the destiny is pushed on you by the gods, who've been watching you from 1-20.

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I think that version may not be entirely correct, however... Epic tier is supposed to place you in reach of becoming or even challenging the gods. While having higher powers placing you on the path for Paragon level may make sense, Epic Destinies come across to me as the character making himself into something more than just a mortal.

ZetaStriker said:

I think that version may not be entirely correct, however... Epic tier is supposed to place you in reach of becoming or even challenging the gods. While having higher powers placing you on the path for Paragon level may make sense, Epic Destinies come across to me as the character making himself into something more than just a mortal.

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Hopefully we'll get a better handle on all of that on Friday, when they do the Epic tier excerpt.

I didn't get anything about becoming or challenging the gods from Epic tier. From what devs have said, the gods are like mid-high 30's solo monsters. In generally, too difficult for even a normal party of lvl 30's to defeat without some help, and that's assuming they could get the deity by itself, prevent it from summoning minions, etc.

WotCExcerpt said:

Epic adventures have far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions—in the natural world and even places beyond. Epic characters traverse otherworldly realms and explore never-before-seen caverns of wonder, where they fight savage balor demons, abominations such as the ferocious tarrasque, mind flayer masterminds, terrible archdevils, bloodthirsty lich archmages, and even the gods themselves. The dragons they encounter are ancient wyrms of truly earth-shaking power, whose sleep troubles kingdoms and whose waking threatens existence.

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High level paragons might have seen the planes, but haven't done much there. The Epic tier is where you're off in the planes trying to stop the threat to your planet/plane from some extra-planar threat. The gods are still well above the reach of lower epic characters, and only maybe within reach of well-prepared max-level epic characters.

One of my buddies is actually running with this as a plot point, similar to the old ELH and their various suggestions for how to 'break' the epic barrier. In his world, when the disaster came, all the paragon and epic heroes and villains both, subsided, most killed, but a few slumbering, trapped, etc. As the cycle turns, the PCs are the first of a new group of heroes, the first in generations to reach past the heroic tier.


In /my/ campaign, there are going to be signature events at the transition. Just as an example ... dragonslaying. Dragonslaying is, IMO a perfect iconic 'gateway' experience to a higher tier. It's what the common people will remember, it's how you all stood together, with the hot blood of the ancient race pooling around your feet, it's how with his dying breath, the wyrm cursed you, it's stealing the secrets of the beast as you consume his heart raw. It's the terrible secret the dragon told you, as he laughed, and breathed his last. Pick one! Depending on if the tiers are natural progressions, fate, magical oomph, etc. Of course, you may make dragons more or less common, in your world. But in mine, it's going to be very rare to encounter one before the very end of the heroic tier/beginning of the paragon tier.

In War of the Burning Sky, when you finish the fourth adventure, you're 8th level and have (hopefully) saved a kingdom from an invasion.

When you finish the eighth adventure, you're 16th level and have led an army to defeat an enemy nation's sorcerous scheme to conquer the world.

When you finish the campaign, you turn the wheel of the ages and usher in a new era, be it rebirth or ruin.