Expanded ECL rules!

UK came of with a great thing in Asgard 6 as part of his system for the Immortal's Handbook, and I use that system myself. That system, however, only takes into account Level, HD, static SA and SQ, and Divine Rank.

After much thought, I have expanded upon UK's guidelines from Asgard 6 in order to come up with a more comprehensive system that takes ALL things into account, including ability acores and varying levels of power for SA and SQ.

This is a work in progress, and I submit it for the approval of all here, including and especially UK, who I hope considers adopting these expanded guidelines (especially after we finish our little test to determine the ECL of Divine Ranks).



Determining ECL:

+1 ECL per Class Level
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

+10 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+20 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

+1 ECL/Hit Die for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice for Beasts
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

+1 ECL per +4 total bonus to ability scores, not counting +1/4 Hit Dice or Levels, minimum +1 (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16, Dex +2, Con +10, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha -4, or a total of +22 to ability scored for +5 to ECL)

+1 ECL per SA or SQ (except as noted below)
+2 ECL for powerful SA or SQ
+2 ECL for Epic SA or SQ (i.e. a normal ability that does something similar to an Epic Feat or Epic Power)
+3 ECL for powerful Epic SQ or SQ (i.e. an ability that does something similar to a very powerful Epic Feat or Epic Power, such as a creature with Great Reflection or Superior Multiweapon Fighting)
+3 ECL for Blindsight
+1 ECL per 20/+2 Damage Reduction (minimum +1)
+1 ECL per 10 Fast Healing or Regeneration (minimum +1)
+1 ECL per 20 Resistance to Energy, per instance, total minimum +1 ECL (i.e. Fire Resistance 20 would be ECL +1, Fire Resistance 40 would be ECL +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 10 would be +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 20 would be +2, etc.)
+1 ECL for Spell Resistance, +1 ECL per 5 Spell Resistance over 20
+1 ECL per +4 Turn Resistance
+1 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1 ECL per attack after four attacks (i.e. if a creature gets 100 attacks, it gets +96 ECL)
+1 ECL per 20 AC over AC 20
+1 ECL per 100% increase in movement over standard movement based on size
+(Creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier) if the creature can summon more of its own kind, multipled by the number of times per day it may summon (i.e. a Hecatoncheires can summon another of its kind, so it receives +52 ECL because it is intially ECL +52 for being an Outsider)



For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:


ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level
21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels


This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.



Anyway, these are my expanded ECL/CR rules. What do you all think? What are your thoughts on this, UK?

Anubis said:

+1 ECL per SA or SQ (except as noted below)
+2 ECL for powerful SA or SQ
+2 ECL for Epic SA or SQ (i.e. a normal ability that does something similar to an Epic Feat or Epic Power)
+3 ECL for powerful Epic SQ or SQ (i.e. an ability that does something similar to a very powerful Epic Feat or Epic Power, such as a creature with Great Reflection or Superior Multiweapon Fighting)

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I'm not sure I understand the system entirely. Is this example correct? It uses a special template (I don't have a CR modification).

Human Ftr20 with some special abilities from the template:

Epic Prowess (+1 attack with any weapon)
Epic Weapon Focus (+2 attack with a chosen weapon)
Epic Weapon Specialization (+4 damage with a chosen weapon)
Epic Toughness (+20 hit points)
+1 to all saves

ECL: 29 = 20 (class levels) + 8 (4 epic feats) + 1 (+1 to all saves)

Is this correct, or did I make a mistake somewhere? (BTW, I think +1 to all saves is too weak for +1 ECL, but there aren't any fractions.)

Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

CRGreathouse said:

I'm not sure I understand the system entirely. Is this example correct? It uses a special template (I don't have a CR modification).

Human Ftr20 with some special abilities from the template:

Epic Prowess (+1 attack with any weapon)
Epic Weapon Focus (+2 attack with a chosen weapon)
Epic Weapon Specialization (+4 damage with a chosen weapon)
Epic Toughness (+20 hit points)
+1 to all saves

ECL: 29 = 20 (class levels) + 8 (4 epic feats) + 1 (+1 to all saves)

Is this correct, or did I make a mistake somewhere? (BTW, I think +1 to all saves is too weak for +1 ECL, but there aren't any fractions.)

Click to expand...

Scaling the lesser powers is a bit difficult. +1 to all saves isn't something I think would normally be seen.

The list isn't something all characters could just choose from in order to buff characters, although if the rules were expanded further, these rules certainly could be used like that and still be balanced.

The primary idea behind these rules is to help evaluate monsters as player races better as well as to find the CR for new creatures you create.

Humans, however, generally don't just "have" the powers you mentioned, and taking feats as normal would not add to the ECL. (Also, I use a house rule version of Epic Toughness that is ENTIRELY different.) Taking your example, if those abilities were "innate" as they are, and if you took Epic Toughness as is from the ELH, then the ECL would indeed be 29. If those were merely feats he possessed, however, he would still be ECL 20 because feats are counted in the HD.

That's how I figured the ECL modifiers for various classifications, based on their BAB, good saved, skill points, and whether or not they got feats. The top tier received both fighter BAB and three good saves. The second tier all had one or the other. The third tier had neither, and also no feats. The fourth tier gets no skills nor feats.

Anyway, the bottom line is, the ability list is for powers beyond what the character normally gets for being at a certain Level.

Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

Anubis said:

The list isn't something all characters could just choose from in order to buff characters, although if the rules were expanded further, these rules certainly could be used like that and still be balanced.

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Oh, I didn't think it was. This is purely in the interest of testing the balance.

Anubis said:

The primary idea behind these rules is to help evaluate monsters as player races better as well as to find the CR for new creatures you create.

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Understood; that's what I assumed it was.

Anubis said:

Humans, however, generally don't just "have" the powers you mentioned, and taking feats as normal would not add to the ECL.

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I should hope not! The rule 1 level = 1 ECL must be preserved.

*****

CRGreathouse said:

Human Ftr20 with some special abilities from the template:

Epic Prowess (+1 attack with any weapon)
Epic Weapon Focus (+2 attack with a chosen weapon)
Epic Weapon Specialization (+4 damage with a chosen weapon)
Epic Toughness (+20 hit points)
+1 to all saves

ECL: 29 = 20 (class levels) + 8 (4 epic feats) + 1 (+1 to all saves)

Click to expand...

How would this character compare to a human Ftr22 who takes Epic Weapon Focus on level 21 and Epic Weapon Specialization on level 22?

Re: Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

CRGreathouse said:

Oh, I didn't think it was. This is purely in the interest of testing the balance.



Understood; that's what I assumed it was.



I should hope not! The rule 1 level = 1 ECL must be preserved.

*****



How would this character compare to a human Ftr22 who takes Epic Weapon Focus on level 21 and Epic Weapon Specialization on level 22?

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Hard to say, honestly. I have learned, after trial and error, that ECL and CR simply can't be compared by comparing any two single characters of any power level, equal or not. On the surface, the two characters would look exactly the same, except one would be much higher ECL. They would be CR 21 and CR 24, by the way.

The two characters would have different feats for sure, and the ECL 29 character would have a bit more wealth, but other than that, there is no way to compare, especially if they're both PCs. (PC duels aren't a good test for ECL and CR rules.)

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Anubis said:

Hard to say, honestly. I have learned, after trial and error, that ECL and CR simply can't be compared by comparing any two single characters of any power level, equal or not. On the surface, the two characters would look exactly the same, except one would be much higher ECL. They would be CR 21 and CR 24, by the way.

The two characters would have different feats for sure, and the ECL 29 character would have a bit more wealth, but other than that, there is no way to compare, especially if they're both PCs. (PC duels aren't a good test for ECL and CR rules.)

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They're both PCs. I'm not doing PvP, just testing their effectiveness in the same party. (Still, with those CRs, it would take 2-3 of the Ftr22 to match the Ftr20, right?)

*****

Comparing the power of the characters:

The Ftr22 is superior in all ways. His EAB balances Epic Prowess, his epic save bonus balances the +1 to all saves, and he gets more hit points from his two HD than the Ftr20 gets from Epic Toughness (assuming Con 20+ or favorable rolls). The Ftr22 also gets more skill points and higher skill maximums.

What's more, this isn't a pedantic exception to the normal rules. A Ftr(20+6x) will have 5x epic feats, and ECL 20+6x, but a Ftr20 with 5x epic feats loses the other benefits of leveling and has a higher ECL (20+10x to 20+15x)!

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CRGreathouse said:

What's more, this isn't a pedantic exception to the normal rules. A Ftr(20+6x) will have 5x epic feats, and ECL 20+6x, but a Ftr20 with 5x epic feats loses the other benefits of leveling and has a higher ECL (20+10x to 20+15x)!

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Huh? What the heck does all that mean?

I would say the lower level fighter with those abilities innate would be more powerful, as he would never have to have gotten Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, giving him two more normal feats, and he has them forever. The other character had to spend lots of feats fo all of them for the same effect.

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Anubis said:

Huh? What the heck does all that mean?

I would say the lower level fighter with those abilities innate would be more powerful, as he would never have to have gotten Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, giving him two more normal feats, and he has them forever. The other character had to spend lots of feats fo all of them for the same effect.

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The higher level fighter has every feat the lower level one has, or an ability which is the same or better. For every level one gains, the other can match it with a level and an equal feat. (In fact, the higher-level one could qualify for more feats due to an higher BAB + EAB, giving him a better selection.)

Oh, and you lose a feat if you lose or don't have the prerequisites... so the lower-level one would be even weaker still if not for WF and WS.

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CRGreathouse said:

The higher level fighter has every feat the lower level one has, or an ability which is the same or better. For every level one gains, the other can match it with a level and an equal feat. (In fact, the higher-level one could qualify for more feats due to an higher BAB + EAB, giving him a better selection.)

Oh, and you lose a feat if you lose or don't have the prerequisites... so the lower-level one would be even weaker still if not for WF and WS.

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If it's a feat. If you make it innate, which is what you did by raising the ECL, then they don't need the prerequisites. THAT'S my point. Sorry for the confusion.

A Level 20 Fighter with those feats as innate abilities, making him ECL 29 (CR 24), needs none of the feat prerequisites BECAUSE you made them innate abilities.

That's why you should not give normal characters feats as innate abilities. I just have the calculation there if you want to do so, that's all.

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Anubis said:

If it's a feat. If you make it innate, which is what you did by raising the ECL, then they don't need the prerequisites. THAT'S my point. Sorry for the confusion.

A Level 20 Fighter with those feats as innate abilities, making him ECL 29 (CR 24), needs none of the feat prerequisites BECAUSE you made them innate abilities.

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OK, fine. The Ftr22 is not unilaterally more powerful, since he must spend two non-epic feats. He still gets their benefit (they stack with EWF & WES), and they're not uncommon choices.