Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

Continue.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45989

Hi Dinkledog mate!

Appreciate the help - that thread ballooned very quickly.

Hiya mate!

demiurgeastaroth said:

I did question if he was having more than usual moderate encounters.
One thing, though. As you know I consider the system (for my group) gives XP values that are too high and I don't know if that applies at all levels.
But I feel there is a problem at low levels that is distinct from that, due to a built-in bias in the system to accelerate advancement of low-level characters - as a natural consequence of the fact "that low-level encounters that are even slightly higher CR are much more dangerous (and hence give greater rewards)". This is not a good thing, because it means that people will shoot through the system too quickly.
If you don't want to change the system to account for this because you don't want to add arbitrary factors, that's okay. But I think there should be a sidebar in the final document discussing this, because people new to the system won't be aware of it, and offering an optional rule for those who want to maintain normal advancement rates at that level.
(It's not important to work out what that rule would be just yet, with the system still being designed, but I'd be happy to hear a commitment to include one.)

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I will discuss it in the revision. But I won't be changing things arbitrarily (as you rightfully deduced).

demiurgeastaroth said:

Thanks. I'd guessed at .25/head, based on half the cost of an extra attack, so having it confirmed may mean I'm getting a feel for the system - a good thing.

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demiurgeastaroth said:

I think it was meant that you should include the unrounded figure: so if a creature works out at 6.3, you list 6.3 so if people choose to add or remove fetures they know the cost will still be right. More useful, but oesn't look as pretty

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I was just preempting the next bout.

demiurgeastaroth said:

<about the SR using original MM CR & SR>
Well, I mentioned it one or two messages before Anubis in this thread. Maybe that was it?

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I appreciate everyones help.

demiurgeastaroth said:

It should be a viable solution. At present, you calculate EL as accurately as possible, using fractions/percentages: see the example in the document of mixed creature EL. It ends up as 241%, modifying the final EL by 2.

Calculating creature XP by individual EL (as is done in the DMG) means that you get to use the rough figure for encounter level calculation, but you can calculate the XP cost of the PCs exact victories.
In that example, the players are facing:
Base Unit: Red Dragon EL 24 (EL +/-0) = 100%
4 Pit Fiends EL 23 (EL -1) = +66.6%
4 Cornugons EL 22 (EL -2) = +50%
10 Barbazu EL 20 (EL -4) = +25%

What happens if they defeat the dragon, most of the demons, but then are forced to flee the last pit fiend and cornugon, gaining a partical victory. In the official system, it's easy - you just calculate XP for the defeated creatures. In your system you need to go through the rigmarole of working all the above out again.

Where the monsters are of equal EL, and found in pairs, groups or 3, 4, 6, 8, and so on, the XP for both methods is the same. But by using individual EL for XP, you can give the proper experience for trickier cases.

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I think there could be an easier way than a full reverse engineering.

I think determining the encounter EL is more important than the individual EL with regards EXP.

demiurgeastaroth said:

Drat. It was the DDG pseudo-deity I was looking for (since I dont have your version). On reflection, though, it should be easy enough to work out.
I remember mention of a Deity Stat Array. Any idea what stats they get?

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The Divine Array is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24 ~ of course I don't use the divine array in the Immortals Handbook.

Hiya mate!

seasong said:

Like I said, it's probably full of holes . I threw out numbers so we'd have something to tear down and start from.

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seasong said:

And if the PCs didn't negate the ability, it just happened to be negated in the situation? For example, the PCs fall through a small hole in the roof and find themselves facing a dragon. Should they get XP for the dragon's flight ability, even though they did nothing to negate it?

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As I mentioned previously I think situational modifiers are more to do with circumstances rather than PCs using their powers.

seasong said:

I was more interested in the philosophy of what makes a situation break down into "easier" or "harder". Your CR system seemed to lead the way

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I think it outlines the ingredients correctly but not all the recipes.

seasong said:

If it works well, I'm glad I could help

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Appreciate it mate!

alot of work and comments

this has become quite the tread... I am glad to follow this as I can... U_K how goes? I know you told me to thank ya later after you posted... hehe... just a friendly reminder... I know its a lot of work... I can always use a reference material so that I can adjust accordingly... what do ya say?

-in honor zaknafein

Re: alot of work and comments

Hi Zaknafein mate!

Zaknafein said:

this has become quite the tread...

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True.

Zaknafein said:

I am glad to follow this as I can... U_K how goes?

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Not too bad, streamlining some of the IH abilities at the moment...

...but I presume you mean the list of revised CRs.

Zaknafein said:

I know you told me to thank ya later after you posted... hehe... just a friendly reminder... I know its a lot of work...

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Its not really that much work I simply have better things to do so I am in no hurry.

Zaknafein said:

I can always use a reference material so that I can adjust accordingly... what do ya say?

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At the moment I am at the letter 'H' - after about an hour on the matter.

First off, as to the encounters, you must have missed the part about "one bugbear, two hobgoblins, and four goblins" which was the climax of the advanture and gave quite a bit of XP. In fact, I think it was over 500 per person, but I can't recall exactly.

Also, by the current rules, if you retreat from combat after defeating some enemies, you still get NO XP. This is stated plainly. If enemies retreat you get full XP, if you retreat you get no XP.

As for going through low levels quickly, UK's system is designed for STANDARD games. The standard for most adventures is Levels 5-15. You are the exception if you wanna play at lower levels a lot. This should NOT be taken into account whatsoever for the system, which awards XP based on the the overall challenge and not based on "when should characters gain a level". At low levels, encounters are that much harder, so you main that much more XP. It's right as-is. If you, the exception, want slower progression, simply cut the XP awards. Divide the XP given by UK's sytem by 2 or by 4 before dividing XP to PCs. That'll slow down progression considerably and solve all your problems. Or just do your suggestion of awarding XP by EL instead of PEL. Do not try to make it sound like the system is to blame, however, when you are the exception.

As it stands, the system works perfectly for an OVERALL balanced campaign that spans ALL levels.

Eldorian's Alternate SR system.

This is a fundamental change to how SR works, and may be inappropiate for UK's book, however, it will work for house rules.

Basically the system works by having a set SR. This SR is the target number for a spell penetration check. The spell penetration check is made by rolling a d20 and adding your EL, subtracting the opponent's EL, and adding benifts from feats like spell penetration.

I don't factor in caster levels, as I think anyone without full fledged caster levels is too severly punished from SR, as I've found out at epic levels, the less than full fledged casters basically stand no chance of getting a spell through SR, and not much chance of not being saved against.

The great thing about this system, is that SR 11 equates to approximatly 50/50 chance to avoid spells from equal EL opponents. So when determining the CR modifier for SR, SR 11 is basically avoids half magic attacks, and SR 30 is basically the same as magic immunity. Currently, at high levels of SR, UK's system breaks down, because SR begins to cost more than magic immunity. If you simply make SR cost .1 per point, it works out pretty well, with SR 11 being 1.1 CR, and SR 30 being 3 CR, basically magic immunity.

This system requires one to change how items, feats, and spells that give SR work. For items, you can basically make SR 11 the equivalent of a Cloak of Displacement for cost, and go from there, using some exponential rule. The weapon chart may make a decent basis, with SR 11 being the equivalent in price of a +5 weapon, and every +1 on the weapon being 2 on the SR. The spell spell resistance could simply grant SR 11.

To convert a monster to this system, all one must do is take its current SR, and subtract its current CR, to get its new SR level. For example, a mind flayer, at SR 25 and CR 8, would have new SR 17. Obviously, the mind flayer is very spell resistant. The Imp, on the other hand, has SR 5 and is CR 3, so it's new SR would be 2. Obviously, the Imp has very little resistance to spells, from anything other than much weaker opponents.

The best part of the system is calculating the CR gained from SR. It's much easier when Drow, which have SR 11, to always get the exact same CR modifier from SR, instead of as current rules have their racial abilities increase in CR as they gain in level. And this system doesn't have the problem where extremely high levels of SR cost more than Magic immunity. In fact, if one wanted to house rule things farther, one could remove magic immunity, and just give high SR, for example 30, to monsters that previously had magic immunity.

Eldorian Antar

Anubis said:

First off, as to the encounters, you must have missed the part about "one bugbear, two hobgoblins, and four goblins" which was the climax of the advanture and gave quite a bit of XP. In fact, I think it was over 500 per person, but I can't recall exactly.

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That's a bit more than the "by the book" system for that encounter: I reckon the normal award would be around 300 each for a 4-person group.
But it means the rest of the encounters were giving roughly the right amount of XP.

Also, by the current rules, if you retreat from combat after defeating some enemies, you still get NO XP. This is stated plainly. If enemies retreat you get full XP, if you retreat you get no XP.

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Well, that should depend. The rulebook says "if the challenge was overcome."
If your objective was to stop that little army of devils from performing some evil mission, you have probably succeeded. They are now severely weakened, and may be forced to withdraw.
Circumstances matter.
In any case, many GMs will give awards for such partial successes, regardless.

As for going through low levels quickly, UK's system is designed for STANDARD games. The standard for most adventures is Levels 5-15. You are the exception if you wanna play at lower levels a lot.

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This is rubbish. The DMg tells us that games fall into several types - low, medium, high, and very high levels. It says nothing about which is standard. However...
The standard game starts with players at 1st level, therefore every standard game has to go through levels 1-4.
If you start your game above that, you are using optional rules, therefore you are playing a non-standard game.

This should NOT be taken into account whatsoever for the system, which awards XP based on the the overall challenge and not based on "when should characters gain a level". At low levels, encounters are that much harder, so you main that much more XP. It's right as-is. If you, the exception, want slower progression, simply cut the XP awards. Divide the XP given by UK's sytem by 2 or by 4 before dividing XP to PCs. That'll slow down progression considerably and solve all your problems. Or just do your suggestion of awarding XP by EL instead of PEL. Do not try to make it sound like the system is to blame, however, when you are the exception.

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I don't believe I am the exception. On this thread, two others have said they enjoy low-level play, and only you have argued the opposite view - based on that sampling, you are the exception.
Also note, I'm playing an epic level game: personally, I prefer to skip the lower levels because I think that characters are oo fragile. But I see that there are plenty of people who enjoy those levels, and my goal was to ensure that such people are alerted to the fact that those levels will zip by faster than they expect, if they do not modify XP at low values.

As it stands, the system works perfectly for an OVERALL balanced campaign that spans ALL levels.

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That spans ALL levels... except the low ones

Darren

Hiya mate!

Eldorian said:

Eldorian's Alternate SR system.

This is a fundamental change to how SR works, and may be inappropiate for UK's book, however, it will work for house rules.

Basically the system works by having a set SR. This SR is the target number for a spell penetration check. The spell penetration check is made by rolling a d20 and adding your EL, subtracting the opponent's EL, and adding benifts from feats like spell penetration.

I don't factor in caster levels, as I think anyone without full fledged caster levels is too severly punished from SR, as I've found out at epic levels, the less than full fledged casters basically stand no chance of getting a spell through SR, and not much chance of not being saved against.

The great thing about this system, is that SR 11 equates to approximatly 50/50 chance to avoid spells from equal EL opponents. So when determining the CR modifier for SR, SR 11 is basically avoids half magic attacks, and SR 30 is basically the same as magic immunity. Currently, at high levels of SR, UK's system breaks down, because SR begins to cost more than magic immunity. If you simply make SR cost .1 per point, it works out pretty well, with SR 11 being 1.1 CR, and SR 30 being 3 CR, basically magic immunity.

This system requires one to change how items, feats, and spells that give SR work. For items, you can basically make SR 11 the equivalent of a Cloak of Displacement for cost, and go from there, using some exponential rule. The weapon chart may make a decent basis, with SR 11 being the equivalent in price of a +5 weapon, and every +1 on the weapon being 2 on the SR. The spell spell resistance could simply grant SR 11.

To convert a monster to this system, all one must do is take its current SR, and subtract its current CR, to get its new SR level. For example, a mind flayer, at SR 25 and CR 8, would have new SR 17. Obviously, the mind flayer is very spell resistant. The Imp, on the other hand, has SR 5 and is CR 3, so it's new SR would be 2. Obviously, the Imp has very little resistance to spells, from anything other than much weaker opponents.

The best part of the system is calculating the CR gained from SR. It's much easier when Drow, which have SR 11, to always get the exact same CR modifier from SR, instead of as current rules have their racial abilities increase in CR as they gain in level. And this system doesn't have the problem where extremely high levels of SR cost more than Magic immunity. In fact, if one wanted to house rule things farther, one could remove magic immunity, and just give high SR, for example 30, to monsters that previously had magic immunity.

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Essentially (as we discussed on MSN last night) your SR rules are the same as my optional rules with two differences.

#1. Instead of just using the monsters CR you work out the difference between CR and (current) SR.

...This carries with it all the foibles of the current SR scores (which I suppose is both a good and a bad thing depending on what way you look at it).

#2. You add bonuses for feats/deific abilities after everything is converted to EL.

...For me this is a problem because it becomes all too easy to either always penetrate or always resist.