Mystic Theurge: start sooner, finish later.

I was following the Mystic Theurge thread in the general forum over the last few days. Its basic conclusion was that the Theurge was a very weak prestige class at lower levels, and it only became balanced over level 10.

The primary reason for this was the prerequisite of casting Arcane and Divine 2nd-level spells. At sixth level, a Wiz3, Clr3 split is generally considered to be very underpowered.

This could be avoided if it was possible to enter the Theurge class at an earlier point, but if it only required one level of either arcane or divine spellcasting ability (say, 1st-level spells only), the Theurge would be too good. I don't like the idea of a Wiz9, Clr1, MT10.

So, with minimal changes to the class, here's an idea to allow earlier entry to the Mystic Theurge, but still requiring an investment in both arcane and divine spellcasting levels:


MYSTIC THEURGE
Requirements:
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.
Special: The mystic theurge must maintain both a mastery over and a balance between divine and arcane energies at all times. For each matched pair of non-theurge divine and arcane spellcasting classes (e.g., wizard 1/cleric 1 or wizard 3/cleric 3), a character may take a pair of theurge levels.

For example: Jozilee aspires to be a Mystic Theurge. She takes a level in wizard and cleric (a matched pair), and then two levels in mystic theurge. Jozilee is now a 4th-level character (Wiz1, Clr1, MT2) who casts as a Wiz3, Clr3. Before she can take more theurge levels, she must have another matched pair of wizard and cleric levels. Which means Jozilee can not advance as a theurge again until 7th level, when she could (if desired) become a Wiz2, Clr2, MT3.


Using this progression, dual divine and arcane spellcasting ability is gained slightly faster at the earlier levels (at level 7 you can cast 3rd-level spells vs. 2nd-level spells per the core rules). But it is delayed at the later levels: you cannot get the last two levels of theurge until character levels 19 and 20.

Also, you can not get 9th level spells if you take all 10 levels of theurge (disclaimer: I'm not considering epic levels here). So no Wiz7, Clr3, MT10 with 9th level wizard spells and 8th level cleric. If you want ninth level spells, you can't take more than six levels of theurge (Wiz11, Clr3, MT6).

One conceptual problem is it breaks the basic design principle that prestige classes are typically aimed at level 5-7+ for entry. Being able to enter it at 3rd level seems awfully low to me.

Having said that, it does seem a neat way of making the class more useful at lower levels and more difficult to benefit from at higher levels, and that is a good thing.

Cheers

I have no problem with the low level requirement. A human fighter can take their first level of forsaker on CL 2. This is even later and I have no problem with that.

tmaaas said:

Using this progression, dual divine and arcane spellcasting ability is gained slightly faster at the earlier levels (at level 7 you can cast 3rd-level spells vs. 2nd-level spells per the core rules). But it is delayed at the later levels: you cannot get the last two levels of theurge until character levels 19 and 20.

Also, you can not get 9th level spells if you take all 10 levels of theurge (disclaimer: I'm not considering epic levels here). So no Wiz7, Clr3, MT10 with 9th level wizard spells and 8th level cleric. If you want ninth level spells, you can't take more than six levels of theurge (Wiz11, Clr3, MT6).

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I made a change almost identical to yours, with the same effect. I specified that MT levels could never be higher than two times the lowest caster level, e.g., Clr2/Wiz3 = max MT4. I found this to work well, as the increased number of spells and flexibility were balanced by receiving higher level spells 2-3 character levels later. I tested this with a Clr/Sor up to 7th level and while I certainly missed having fireball at 6th level, he was still a very flexible character, in and out of combat.

Plane Sailing said:

One conceptual problem is it breaks the basic design principle that prestige classes are typically aimed at level 5-7+ for entry. Being able to enter it at 3rd level seems awfully low to me.

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Yes, I was aware I was doing something atypical, but I thought it was worth it. And design guidelines are made to be broken . . . as long as you know why you are doing so.

Actually, I think the more radical departure from the "norm" of prestige class design is the application of prerequisites to each level. Normally, once you qualify for level one, you qualify for all levels of the prestige class and can take them all in a row (if desired). Not so here. You can take the first level of Theurge as early as CL 3, but the tenth level can't be taken until CL 20!

I tend to envision the Mystic Theurge as a core character concept, rather than a prestige concept. The original class, mechanically speaking, just doesn't do well starting at 7th level as it currently does.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sir Whiskers said:

I made a change almost identical to yours, with the same effect. I specified that MT levels could never be higher than two times the lowest caster level, e.g., Clr2/Wiz3 = max MT4.

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Yes, that is identical to what I've proposed. I considered phrasing it that way, but chose to go with the "balance between arcane and divine energies" route instead.

So, did you feel your character was too weak? That's what most people say when playing a (DMG core) Mystic Theurge-destined character over levels one to seven. My proposal was only based on theory, not playtesting .

tmaaas said:

So, did you feel your character was too weak? That's what most people say when playing a (DMG core) Mystic Theurge-destined character over levels one to seven. My proposal was only based on theory, not playtesting .

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No, I felt he was able to pull his own weight in the party from the beginning (we started at 2nd level). While there were times I wanted the standard area-effect damage spells, I was able to get by with glitterdust, charm person, and magic missile as attack spells. And the cleric spells definitely helped supplement our cleric's healing, as well as allowing for the occasional combat spell (bless, spiritual weapon, monster summoning).

It's possible I would have felt the delay in getting the more powerful spells at higher levels, but that's the price of running a MT in the first place. For me, the flexibility (especially being able to cover for the cleric in an emergency) was worth it. Besides, it was a nice change of pace.