Help me rate the CR of the UNDEAD CHAMPION TEMPLATE

What CR do you think this sucker should have? Do you think it is balanced for play, too similar to other undead, what have you. Feedback desired.

Updated w edit - UNDEAD CHAMPION TEMPLATE
This template is for monstrous or regular humanoids & giants.
Type: Type becomes Undead
HD: increase all to current & future HD to D12’s
AC: natural AC increases by 3
Special Abilities: Retains all special abilities and qualities of the base creature as well as…
Aura of Terror SU Creature within 15’ (for the 1st time that day) make a WILL DC 10+ ½ HD +CHA mod or are shaken for 1 minute.
Circle of Suffering SU All living creatures in 15’ radius weep tears of blood, taking d4 damage each round.
Shout of Rage SU As a move action, shout in 20’ cone does 2d6 subdual damage & deafness for 1 minute, negate with FORT DC 10 + ½ HD + STR mod. This shout can be made every d4 R.
Damage Reduction SU 10/Silver
Unnatural Puissance EX Make 1 extra melee attack each round at highest bonus.
Turn Resistance +3
Immune to Cold
Vampiric Healing SU regain 3 HP/melee attack made that inflicts 6+ damage in a single hit
Racial Skills: +8 Intimidate
Bonus Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative
Abilities: Str +6, Dex +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. No CON
CR: Same as base creature +2
ECL: +7
Treasure: double Standard
Alignment: Always Evil

The main issue I see is that the special abilities should have save DCs of 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mods. Leaving it the way you have it gives higher-HD undead champs the shaft.

My gut reaction is tha this thing is CR +4

can you apply it to like a 5th level fighter? That might make it easier to tell.

trentonjoe said:

My gut reaction is tha this thing is CR +4
can you apply it to like a 5th level fighter? That might make it easier to tell.

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Template used on a 4th lv fighter (CR 7)
HD 4d12 (26 hp)
AC armor +6, shield +2, natural +3, dex +2 = 23
Aura of Terror 15' radius, DC 14 or shaken 2d6 r
Circle of Suffering 15' radius, d4 dmg ea R
Shout of Rage 20' cone, once every d4 R. Fort 17 or 2d6 subdual & deaf for 1 minute
DR 10/silver
Unnatural Puissance extra melee attack each round: +10/+10
Turn resist +3
Immune to cold
Vampiric Healing - every time its melee attack does 6+ dmg, it heal 3 HP
Assuming base STR 15, becomes 21, DEX 12 = 14
Total # of feats (including everything) 8
Above assumes at least a masterwork sword.

Let's look at this:

OGRE
Large undead
Hit Dice: 4d12 +3 (30 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. in hide armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +8 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+14
Attack: +1 Greatclub +11 melee (2d8+13) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+8)
Full Attack: +1 Greatclub +11/+11 melee (2d8+13) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Aura of Terror,Circle of terror,shout of rage, haste like extra attack, Vampiric healing
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, DR10/ silver, turn reistance +3, immune to cold
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +1
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con -, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +5, Listen +2, Spot +2
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub), Improved iniative, great fortitude, alertness
Challenge Rating: 6


It is not perfect but Iwould say +3 to CR is about right. I think a 6th level party would have a reasonably easy time with this but a tough time with 2 (which would make it an ECL 8)

Because there is no spell resistance and no additional hit dice added, I would make it +2 CR.

Can you explain this further, as I'm reading it as taking 2d6 subdual for 2d6 rounds. And it can be done every d4 rounds.

"Shout of Rage SU As a move action, shout in 20’ cone does 2d6 subdual damage & deafness for 2d6 R, negate with FORT DC 10 + ½ HD + STR mod. This shout can be made every d4 R."

bluto68 said:

"Shout of Rage SU As a move action, shout in 20’ cone does 2d6 subdual damage & deafness for 2d6 R, negate with FORT DC 10 + ½ HD + STR mod. This shout can be made every d4 R."

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It is meant to be 'does 2d6 subdual damage. It also causes deafness for 2d6 rounds. This shout may be used every d4 rounds.

For clarity - I'll change it do deafness for 1 minute.

CR +2 for no SR? Hmmm. Vampire & Lich do not gain SR and are CR +3. Do you think it is that vulnerable?

Beholder Bob said:

It is meant to be 'does 2d6 subdual damage. It also causes deafness for 2d6 rounds. This shout may be used every d4 rounds.

For clarity - I'll change it do deafness for 1 minute.

CR +2 for no SR? Hmmm. Vampire & Lich do not gain SR and are CR +3. Do you think it is that vulnerable?

Click to expand...

The SRD I have says Liches and Vamps are +2 CR, and this template is no where near as tough as a Vampire.

No Dominate, 3 points less natural Armor, No command lesser undead, no creation of spawn.

But I would put it relatively on par with Lichdom. So I would vote a weak +2 CR or a Tough +1 CR.

Since it's a "Champion" you should give it some sort of Undead commanding ability or some sort of "Undead Mount Creation". Kill a monster, make it a skelelal mount...

bluto68 said:

The SRD I have says Liches and Vamps are +2 CR, and this template is no where near as tough as a Vampire....But I would put it relatively on par with Lichdom. So I would vote a weak +2 CR or a Tough +1 CR.

Since it's a "Champion" you should give it some sort of Undead commanding ability or some sort of "Undead Mount Creation". Kill a monster, make it a skelelal mount...

Click to expand...

Doh! I meant the OTHER vampire and lich. Uh, the other-other one. Ok, I screwed up. Make that CR +2. Oh, and ECL +7 (not as good as vampire). The undead mount creation would make this fellow too much like the death knight - one of their signature powers.

When I first saw the name, I thought it would be able to command undead. Maybe you could give it the ability to rebuke/command/bolster undead equal to the monsters HD +3 (it's turn resistance, that is, if there are feets that can increase it). Of course, this may increase it's cr quite a bit.

Without my suggestion, it looks like cr +3 or so, considering that the wounding aura (which might I add, is a really cool idea), doesn't allow a save for half. Maybe you could base it off of the creatures HD, like give it 1d4 wounding aura up till 6 or so, then 2d4 wounding aura till around 14, and then 3d4 up till around twenty HD, progressing it further however would maintain the abilities usefulness.

The vampiric attack is interesting, maybe improve it to half the creatures strength bonus to damage, minimum +6, so a subject with 22 str that is double wielding (+9 to damage) would gain 4 hp per successful hit, double on a critical. Of course, this can be abused with stuff like power lunge and similar charge/riding feats. But once again, this adjustment could make it a really powerful cr +3, especially for melee fighters anyway.