Dragon Desciple expanded as a Core Class

I've posted this a separate thread so as not to contaminate the excellent "Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)" thread.

What would a full 20th level version of the dragon disciple look like?

(Essentially acting as a replacement for the Sorcerer class.)

THe DD is nothing like a sorcerer though. They only get a few bonus spells to add to their spells per day.

A 20 level class Dragon Disciple IMHO should reach full dragonhood at the end and halfdragon by level 12.

Erekose said:

I've posted this a separate thread so as not to contaminate the excellent "Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)" thread.

What would a full 20th level version of the dragon disciple look like?

(Essentially acting as a replacement for the Sorcerer class.)

Click to expand...

Heh. Thanks again for the plug and the compliment.

Now to answer your question in a really fast go-through.

My first instinct is to say that the idea, while interesting has one major stumbling block. The Dragon Disciple isn’t technically a spellcaster. They dont truly improve in Spellcasting ability as a sorcerer normally would. If you were to become a 10th level Dragon Disciple and stayed pure “Sorcerer” as the other 10, you will be simply a 10th level sorcerer with 7 bonus spells per day. 10th level sorcerer spells are hard to spread out.

We would also have to look at the point of the class. It is basically a watered down Half-Dragon. It is a class that explores the idea of connecting to one's draconic heritage and expanding those abilities. This is also similar to the Bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana.

Assuming we wanted to go with the purity of your idea, we can see that the type of dragon specifically matters, which means abilities will need to be tailored to the "draconic" origin.

Considering the power of the abilities gained by the Disciple, I would say the spellcasting needs to be toned down quite a bit from the sorcerer.

So lets see what we have.

HD: d12 (versus sorcerer d4)
BAB: Median (versus sorcerer poor)
Saves: 2 Good saves (versus sorcerer 1 Good)
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Knowledge (All), Listen, Profession, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft and Spot.
(hmm…dragon and no intimidate…)
Skill Points: 2+INT
Weapons & Armor: None (versus sorcerer Simple Weapons)

The Disciples Base Class Abilities over 20 levels
1…..Spells
2…..Natural Armor Increase (+1)
3…..Bonus Spell
4…..Ability Boost (Str+2), Claws and Bite
5…..Bonus Spell
6…..Breath Weapon (2d8)
7…..-----
8…..Ability Boost (Str+2), Natural Armor Increase (+2)
9…..Bonus Spell
10…Blindsense 30’
11…Bonus Spell
12…Ability Boost (Con+2)
13…Bonus Spell
14…Breath Weapon (2d8), Natural Armor Increase (+3)
15…-----
16…Ability Boost (Int+2)
17…Bonus Spell
18…Wings
19…Bonus Spell
20…Blindsense 60’, Dragon Apotheosis

Spells from 10 Sorcerer levels: This ends at 5th level access: 0-6/1-6/2-6/3-6/4-5/5-3
We would have to stretch this out over 20 levels. Since this is so hard to spread out over 20 levels, which will require a new table. The best thing is to use the Bard progression with its less spells per day but granting a higher spell level that would normally be achieved.
Combined with the Bonus Spells gained form the Dragon Disciple (7) the class could end up with: 0-4/1-6/2-5/3-5/4-5/5-5/6-5.
Note here that if a Bard took the disciple path, they would have maxed out at a mere 3/3/3/2/0 (bump down to Paladin spell table with 0-levels over 20 levels).

Bonus Spells: The disciple grants 7 bonus spells we should spread these evenly over the 20 levels close to the levels gained in the disciple and using the same pattern.

This ends up being a very powerful class. First thing I would do is immediately drop the d12 HD back to a d6 (10d12 over 20 levels averages to 20d6), maybe fiddle with the skill selection and skill points.

Darklone said:

A 20 level class Dragon Disciple IMHO should reach full dragonhood at the end and halfdragon by level 12.

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A dragon disciple is only a Distant ancestry link to draconic blood, not a full dragon. The best thing to do if you want to make a strong draconic breed is to take the Half-Dragon Template as a Savage Species class, or after the realease of Unearthed Arcana use the Draconic Bloodline (Minor, Intermediate or Major).

Why not create a 5 level Legendary (Super?) Class wherein the Dragon Disciple fully metamorphs into a Dragon?

It would sort of be like the alternative to lichdom.

Spell advancement would go out the window but the rest of the draconic heritage would fully manifest itself until at the end of the process you coume out as a Young Dragon of whatever type your Half-dragon heritage denotes.


I see no reason why this could not work as a class of 20 levels but I do agree with other posters that it might just end up being a spell using Barbarian.

Khaalis said:

Thanks again for the plug and the compliment.

Click to expand...

No problem - you're doing some great work in the other thread.

Crothian said:

THe DD is nothing like a sorcerer though. They only get a few bonus spells to add to their spells per day.

Click to expand...

As ever I think I have accidentally misled what I intended - although Khaalis is on the right track.

The class I have in mind is based on the concept of sorcerers having dragon ancestry and the more powerful they become, the more their draconic heritage come to the fore.

[As an aside - The Half-Dragon template only has a class adjustment of +3 which presumably means a 20th level half-dragon sorcerer (17 levels sorcerer + half-dragon template) is a rough equivalent to a standard race 20th level sorcerer - do people feel this is true?]

For the class, rather than merging the Dragon Disciple PrC and the Sorcerer class what if instead we do something a little more dramatic.

I would rather do away with the "Bonus spell" of the Dragon Disciple and instead have a more standard spell increase per level like standard spellcasters.

Khaalis, I like your suggestion of the bard progression and would happily let it cap out exactly as the bard class does.

As for the other class features, how about the following (I've used a slightly different ability progression):

BAB = Poor
SAVES = Ref (Poor), Fort+Will (Good)
Hit Dice = D6
Skills = Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Profession, Search, Speak Language, Spellcraft and Spot.
Skill Points = 2+INT
Weapons = Simple
Armour = None

1 Dragon sight (low-light vision)
2 Natural Armour +1
3 Immunity to sleep
4 Strength +2
5 Dragon claws and bite
6 Natural Armour +2
7 ---
8 Strength +2
9 Immunity to paralysis
10 Dragon breath (2d8)
11 Blindsense 30’
12 Natural Armour +3, Constitution+2
13 ---
14 Improved dragon sight (darkvision)
15 Dragon breath (4d8), immunity to breath weapon type
16 Intelligence +2
17 Dragon wings
18 Natural Armour +4
19 Blindsense 60’
20 Dragon apotheosis

Dragon apotheosis = breath weapon (full strength), +4 strength, +2 charisma.

Just a mini post for now - will post more later. Where did you draw the abilities and what reasons for the level assignments? (ie: The stuff not from Dragon Disciple) Will help my process.

Khaalis said:

Just a mini post for now - will post more later. Where did you draw the abilities and what reasons for the level assignments? (ie: The stuff not from Dragon Disciple) Will help my process.

Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware all of the abilities are from the Dragon Disciple - I've just broken down "dragon apotheosis" a little and split the abilities over earlier levels. The Charisma +2 is also ripe for moving to an earlier level.

As for the position of the abilities, it's a matter of persoanl taste + judgement of balance but I'm open to other suggestions. As a rule, I guess I'm trying to introduce subtle signs of draconic heritage first and delay the more obvious ones until later. So to begin with eyes at 1st level, a thickening of the skin at 2nd, etc. Also, strength increase before claws and bite to help make the latter more effective, etc.

The main thing I'm concerned about in the above build is the poor BAB which feels wrong for the concept and yet the class as a whole still feels too powerful (and yet may be not if my earlier comment about the half-dragon template is true!).

Looking forward to your comments Khaalis

Erekose said:

Looking forward to your comments Khaalis

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*BUMP!*

Well I still am having issues with the "envisionment" of this class but setting that asside...
I get the feeling this should be more like making the character become a Half-Dragon Paragon but over a full legitamized class of 20 levels. In which case I would bring it back to the idea of the Half-Dragon (warrior type) with some socrerous spells.

BAB = Good
SAVES = Ref (Poor), Fort+Will (Good)
Hit Dice = D12
Skills = Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot.
Bonus Skills based on Race (will do these later if you need them)
Skill Points = 4+INT
Weapons = Simple
Armour = Light and Medium
Spells = As Bard

A few things.
* Need to standardize the bonuses listed on the chart. Either show all as cumulative (like Natural Armor) or what is actually gained at the level like Strength.
* I would take a page from Unearthed and Give the Stat bonuses at +1 not +2.
* Strength comes too early. By 8th its +4. Too soon. Need to spread that out over the 20 levels. Or people will MC to 8th and drop to Barbarian etc.
* Weaker abilities should come earlier and more powerful later - like Darkvision before high strength.

I would do something more like this

1 Dragon sight (low-light vision and darkvsion)
2 Dragon claws and bite
3 Constitution +1
4 Natural Armor +1
5 Strength +1
6 Immunity to sleep
7 Charisma +1
8 Dragon Breath (2d8)
9 Natural Armor +1
10 Strength +1
11 Blindsight 30'
12 Immunity to paralysis
13 Dragon breath (4d8)
14 Natural Armor +1, Charisma +1
15 Strength +1
16 Constitution +1
17 Blindsense 60', Intelligence +1
18 immunity to breath weapon type
19 Wings, Natural Armor +1
20 Dragon Breath (Full Strength)

I think this spreads it out more evenly. Take it as a guideline and fiddle as you see fit to make it work. I hope this helps. Im not the most coherent. And sorry it took so long but I've been down and out (on Chemo).