New race: The Sylvani. And a racial Prestige Class(Edited again)

Merlion

First Post
This is one of 3 new races I created in response to the whole never giving a +0 ECL race a bonus to a mental ability score deal. These guys are Wisdom. I plan to write a better article on em soon, but this is the basics, and a racial prestige class for them as well.



Sylvani

The Sylvani (singular and plural) are a race of plantlike humanoids that inhabit large ancient forests.
They are generally a peaceful people who live in harmony with the forest and study its mysteries.
They are always glad to help travelers through there forests...as long as the travelers are not evil
and intend no harm to the Sylvani or their forests.
A Sylvani appears much like a human, with bark like skin in a variety of shades of brown, black and even white. Where a human has hair Sylvani have what appear to be leaves, moss or even small twigs, in any colour from yellow to dark green. They are general slightly shorter than humans, but weigh about the same.
Not surprisingly, the leaders of most Sylvani communities are Druids.

Sylvani racial traits:

Medium Size. As Medium size creatures Sylvani have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.

Base speed is 20 feet. Sylvani are a little slower than other creatures their size due to their wood-like biology.

Low Light Vision: A Sylvani can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, or other conditions of poor lighting.

Barkskin. A Sylvani’s skin is almost like bark, granting a +1 natural armor bonus to armor class..

Speak with Plants: A Sylvani has a limited ability to communicate with plants. By concentrating for 1 round, the Sylvani gains the benefit of a speak with plants spell for 1 minute per character level.

Plant Affinity: a Sylvani has a special connection to plant life. Due to this, whenever a Sylvani casts a spell that affects plants, such as entangle or command plants his caster level is considered to be 1 higher than its actual value


Forest Sense: The Sylvani are very in tune with the forest, and able to detect incursions into it with great accuracy. While in a forest, a Sylvani always knows which way is north. They are able to sense alterations in the forest and its plant life with great accuracy. Merely passing within 10 feet of a concealed opening, trap, or construction within a forest allows the Sylvani to make a Search check to detect it, as though actively searching for it. A Sylvani may detect and disarm traps within a forested area just as a rogue can.

Skills: Sylvani receive a +2 racial bonus to Knowledge (Nature), Sense Motive, and Survival checks. Additionally, Sylvani receive a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in forested areas.

Abilities: Sylvani are perceptive and deeply in tune with their environment, but their wood like bodies are not as flexible as humans. They receive a +2 racial bonus to Wisdom, and a -2 Racial penalty to Dexterity.

Favored Class: Druid

The Sylvani Warden

Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (Nature) 10 ranks, Survival 10 ranks
Feats: Alertness, Track
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level spells, including Barskin and Entangle
Race: Sylvani
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: The Sylvani Warden’s Class Skills and the key ability for each skill are: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis)

Skill Points at each level: 4 +Int Modifier

Class Features:
All of the following are features of the Sylvani Warden prestige class

Weapon and armor proficiencies: The Sylvani Warden gains no additional proficiencies with any weapons or armor.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new Sylvani Warden level is gained (Except for 5th and 8th level), the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained( Exception: a Druid who becomes a Sylvani Warden adds half his Warden level to his druid level to determine his Wildshape ability). This essentially means that he adds the level of Sylvani Warden to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.



1st level: Minor Forest’s Arm: at 1st level, the Sylvani Warden may use Entangle as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom bonus (minimum once per day)

2nd level: Sense Enemies: at 2nd level, the Sylvani Warden is able to sense the presence of beings who intend harm to the forest or the Sylvani community within it. This ability functions only within a forested area. The ability has a radius in miles equal to half the Sylvani Warden’s class level. The Warden senses any beings in this area with hostile or detrimental intent toward the forest, or any Sylvani community within it, as well as their creature type, general distance from his location, and whether they are entirely hostile ( marauding orcs for instance) or merely intend detrimental actions to the forest (such as human loggers).

3rd level: Minor Forest’s Ward: at 3rd level, the Sylvani Warden may use Barskin as a spell like ability once per day per 3 class levels.

4th level: Swift Tracker: this ability is identical to the 8th level ranger ability.

5th level: Forest’s Arm: Once per day at 5th level, the Sylvani Warden may cause a single tree within 30 feet of him to animate and attack as a Treant. This is a standard action. The tree is not sentient as an actual Treant is, but it obeys the Warden’s orders exactly. If used in combat, the tree remains animated for 1 round per caster level. Alternately, the Warden may animate the tree to guard a specific place or person, in which case it remains animated for 1 day per caster level.

5th level: Forest Shape: at 5th level, the Sylvani Warden may take the form of a plant creature. This ability functions exactly like the Druid ability Wildshape (Plant). A Sylvani Warden with no druid levels is able to use this ability 3 times per day.

6th level: Forest Transport: at 6th level, the Sylvani Warden may move freely within a single forest by stepping into a tree or plant in one part of the forest, and reappearing anywhere within the same forest. He my not use this ability to transport himself beyond the borders of the forest he is currently in.

7th level: Forest Ward: at 7th level, the Sylvani Warden may use Wall of Thorns as a Spell-like ability 3 times per day.

8th level: Greater Forest’s Arm: At 8th level, the Sylvani Warden may use Animate Plants as a spell-like ability once per day per 3 class levels.

10th level: Greater Forest’s Ward: At 10th level, the Sylvani Warden may surround a single Sylvani community with a nearly impassable barrier of plantlife. The barrier completely surrounds the community, and has a hardness of 20. Each 5 foot square area of the barrier has 150 hit points. If a breach is made in the barrier of plant life, it grows back in 1 minute. The barrier lasts for 24 hours, and the Warden may use this ability once every 3 days.


The Sylvani Warden

Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Special Spellcasting
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Minor Forest's Arm +1 level of existing class
2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Sense Enemies +1 level of existing class
3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Minor Forest's Ward +1 level of existing class
4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Swift Tracker +1 level of existing class
5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Forest's Arm, Forest's Shape --
6 +4 +5 +2 +5 Forest Transport +1 level of existing class
7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Forest's Ward +1 level of existing class
8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Greater Forest's Arm --
9 +6 +6 +3 +6 +1 level of existing class
10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Greater Forest's Ward +1level of existing class
 
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This race is the uber druid race (also a good ranger). Why play a druid of a different race - this one has unlimited speak w/plants and a wisdom bonus - the prime stat of a druid. I think it overpowers that class to exclusion. Consider: the +2 wis is better then the feat spell prodigy (gain bonus spells as if spell stat was +2 points) - the dex penalty is erased by the natural armor bonus, unlimited plant speak is pretty damn awesome, and the lowlight and skill bonuses are in addition.

Just my view

B:]B
 

Looks good, though I would have said that all the abilities (heightened AC, spell like abilities) made it at least +1. Sorry.
 

Looks good, though I would have said that all the abilities (heightened AC, spell like abilities) made it at least +1. Sorry

Um, they dont have any spell like abilities, and the natural armor bonus to AC is almost entirely negated by the Dex penalty.


the dex penalty is erased by the natural armor bonus,

The affects of the dex penalty to their armor class are partialy erased by the natural armor bonus. However unlike a Dex bonus the natural armor bonus doesnt apply to touch attacks. Also, it still affects Reflex saves and Dex based skills.


Consider: the +2 wis is better then the feat spell prodigy

So? +2 to Str is better than weapon focus since it adds to attack and damage rolls. Edit: and to all melee attack and damage rolls, not just with 1 weapon.


the dex penalty is erased by the natural armor bonus, unlimited plant speak is pretty damn awesome, and the lowlight and skill bonuses are in addition.

I dont really see how being able to speak with plants is so powerful. Its mostly for flavour beause of their nature.
I have posted this race before (at that time it didnt have the Plant Affinity thing with caster level) and most seemed to feel it was underpowered. I agreed. So explain to me why the Speak with Plants is so powerful..I'm very curious. And compare to races like Gnomes and Dwarves which also have a whole load of abilities.


Why play a druid of a different race. and a wisdom bonus

Why play a rogue of any race but halfling or elf? They gain a bonus to Dex, and a number of other bonuses very useful for a rogue.



How bout some thoughts on the prestige class?
 
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Merlion said:
Um, they dont have any spell like abilities..
I assume he meant speak w/plants, a 3rd lv druid spell, 4th lv bard.

Merlion said:
The affects of the dex penalty to their AC...
MY assumption here is that the race gets one penalty (-2 dex) which is negated by a bonus. It is no good vs touch, but stacks with worn armor & there when you are flat footed. I'm not debating if one type of ac is better then another - rather I'm noting that the weakness of the race is offset.

Merlion said:
+2 to Str is better than weapon focus ...
They gain a bonus to wisdom (a spell stat rarely touched due to its power) which is better then the feat that 'sorta of' boosts a spell stat. The reason it is worth noting is that it has been considered 'hands-off' to boost spell cast stats - so doing so is pretty potent. The reason PC's consider the feat is for the bonus spells. This fellow gets that, the DC bonus +1 (which is now an additional feat), as well as the skill mods. Again, it is only a +2 to stat, like you pointed out with STR, but the impact on a system where it was considered too potent to allow is certainly notable. The STR mod effects hit/dmg, but is considered less dangerous then modifing the spell stats by the designers - worth a thought.
I'd not allow it, but that is just my perspective! Note - A fellow with spell prodigy feat could start out with a 22 WIS for bonus spells! Certainly nasty. Just a 20 wisdom gives him +2 1st lv spells a day (if I remember correctly) - also a very nice boost!

Merlion said:
I dont really see how being able to speak with plants is so powerful...
Well, it is a 3rd/4th lv spell - so it should be worth more then just flavor. I use it for spying, tracking, gather info, and to gain history of an area - but that is just my druid. It is not fireball, death spell, chain-o-lightning, etc, but a good info gather spell - and now with unlimited uses.

Merlion said:
compare to races like Gnomes and Dwarves which also have a whole load of abilities....
Well - the ability to speak to burrowing animals is nice - but not as nice as plants. 1) burrowing animals tend to be underground in burrows - not out scouting. 2) paranoid people will be cautious if they notice an animal following them or out of place, but who worries about the cypress tree you made your evil plans under? 3) if gnomes gained unlimited speak with all animals, that would have been a big problem - but they didn't.

And in comparing your race to the standard ones - you give them natural armor - a very cool ability! I can see it with a race w/out needing a +1 ECL, but with the other facets it is (for me) too powerful.

Merlion said:
..play a rogue of any race but halfling or elf? They gain a bonus to Dex....
From my perspective: gnome & halfling offer a size bonus to hide, but halfling and elf offer dex, but elf offers good weapons and perception bonuses, but orc offers the ability to put extra muscle into my rogue activies, but dwarf has special focus in stonework that boosts my work and are more likely to survive that poison needle trap, but the human is a great skill monkey and w/bonus feat. A rogue falls into so many catagories, all these races work great for it. A human, elf, dwarf, and 1/2 orc - which makes the best fighter: depends on the build you want. But what race makes the best druid - I'd say your race does, hands down. The only build they would not excell at is an archer druid - but since they do not get the bow, it is an unlikely problem.
 

I assume he meant speak w/plants, a 3rd lv druid spell, 4th lv bard

They have a permanent capability to communicate with plants that happens to work mechanicaly like the spell for convience sake. It is not a spell-like ability in the mechanical sense.


MY assumption here is that the race gets one penalty (-2 dex) which is negated by a bonus. It is no good vs touch, but stacks with worn armor & there when you are flat footed. I'm not debating if one type of ac is better then another - rather I'm noting that the weakness of the race is offset.

Accept that it isnt. One facet out of 3 is.


They gain a bonus to wisdom (a spell stat rarely touched due to its power) which is better then the feat that 'sorta of' boosts a spell stat. The reason it is worth noting is that it has been considered 'hands-off' to boost spell cast stats - so doing so is pretty potent. The reason PC's consider the feat is for the bonus spells. This fellow gets that, the DC bonus +1 (which is now an additional feat), as well as the skill mods. Again, it is only a +2 to stat, like you pointed out with STR, but the impact on a system where it was considered too potent to allow is certainly notable. The STR mod effects hit/dmg, but is considered less dangerous then modifing the spell stats by the designers - worth a thought.

First: Spellcasting Prodigy is not a core feat, its an FR feat, and considered by many overpowered...because it does with a feat what is supposed to be done through statistic modifications. Therefore it is, to me, mostly irrelevent to this discussion.
Second...most of the material has actualy indicated that a bonus to Str is more powerful than one to one of the mind stats...in the guidlines in the DMG it gives "tradeoffs" for ability adjustments, and generaly recomends giving penalties to 2 stats to compensate for a bonus to Str...( a la the half orc) with no such warning about the mind stats. According to the guidlines a bonus to Wis is balanced by a penalty to Dex.

Well, it is a 3rd/4th lv spell - so it should be worth more then just flavor. I use it for spying, tracking, gather info, and to gain history of an area - but that is just my druid. It is not fireball, death spell, chain-o-lightning, etc, but a good info gather spell - and now with unlimited uses

Well - the ability to speak to burrowing animals is nice - but not as nice as plants. 1) burrowing animals tend to be underground in burrows - not out scouting. 2) paranoid people will be cautious if they notice an animal following them or out of place, but who worries about the cypress tree you made your evil plans under? 3)

I would consider any animal-speaking ability more potent overall simply because animals are in fact mobile..plants generaly are not. The point is, they dont actualy have the spell..it represents the fact that since they are halfway plants themselves, they are able to communicate with them. Making it once/day pretty much kills that, to me at least.

And in comparing your race to the standard ones - you give them natural armor - a very cool ability! I can see it with a race w/out needing a +1 ECL, but with the other facets it is (for me) too powerful.

Why? what about them makes you think they'd have any negative effects at +0?
And lets compare more fully to some other races for a moment. This race gets: Low Light Vision, +1 Natural Armor (effectively since they have the dex penalty), +1 caster level with a small number of spells, the ability to communicate with plants, and a bonus to 3 skills.
Now take Elves. Low Light bision. Immunity to all magical sleep effects. +2 to saves against a school of magic. The secret door detection ability. 6 free weapon proficiencies. And bonuses to 3 skills.
Take the Gnome. +1 to hit and +1 AC, +4 to hide from small size. Spell Focus (Ilusion). Low-light vision. +2 to saves against a school of magic. an additional +1 to attack against 4 species. +4 to AC against a creature type. 1 free exotic weapon proficiency. A bonus with 2 skills. : Edit : and of course, 3 free cantrips once each per day..Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation
Halfling: +1 to hit and AC, +4 hide due to small size. +1 to all saving throws. Additional +2 to saves against fear. +1 bonus to hit with thrown weapons and slings (essentialy Weapon Focus with several weapons). And a bonus to 4 skills.

Does my race really seem that much more powerful than those 3?


From my perspective: gnome & halfling offer a size bonus to hide, but halfling and elf offer dex, but elf offers good weapons and perception bonuses, but orc offers the ability to put extra muscle into my rogue activies, but dwarf has special focus in stonework that boosts my work and are more likely to survive that poison needle trap, but the human is a great skill monkey and w/bonus feat. A rogue falls into so many catagories, all these races work great for it. A human, elf, dwarf, and 1/2 orc - which makes the best fighter: depends on the build you want. But what race makes the best druid - I'd say your race does, hands down. The only build they would not excell at is an archer druid - but since they do not get the bow, it is an unlikely problem.

Ok new example. Why play a Fighter as anything but a half-orc? Why play a Bard as anything but a Gnome? no base race gets a Cha bonus, and Gnomes get Bard as favored class and many abilities that assist a bard.
Theres a very easy answer to all of thease questions though. People will play the class and race they WANT to play.
Thats why in Arcana Unearthed Monte Cook abandoned that crap...theres races that get mind-stat bonuses, physical stat bonuses...mechanicaly, the Faen race makes THE best Magister. But that doesnt mean everyone who wants to play a Magister is going to be a Faen.
 
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..It is not a spell-like ability in the mechanical sense.

But it still allows the ability to act as if under the spell. In my book, it is the same thing for power level evaluation.

...Accept that it isnt. One facet out of 3 is.

Again, let us not debate AC source bonuses. All I am saying is that the 2 points of dex is (IN MY OPINION) equal to +2 natural armor. Natural armor is aweful good and will stack with worn armor. You may not think it equal, but for arguments sake, I assume you do think it is valuable. Per the savage species book, natural armor makes this a +1 ecl race to begin with! I do not agree with the book - but do share its opinion that natural armor sure is neat!

...According to the guidlines a bonus to Wis is balanced by a penalty to Dex.

No PC race in the core has a mental modifier in the core book. At the very least, consider it as valuable as a bonus to str for evaluating it. A race with a bonus to a spell casting stat would need to oppose it by double, +2 wis, -2 dex & cha, for example.

...point is, they dont actualy have the spell...they are able to communicate with them.

I understand your point, but they still gain an impressive ability. I do not argue the logic for giving it to them - but remember that it is THE EQUIVELENT of a 3rd/4th lv spell. Do not call it a spell ability - fine, but they still produce the same results (except better - they can not have it foiled by anti-magic, not that this will matter)

...what about them makes you think they'd have any negative effects at +0?

This race gets: +2 wis/-2 dex, Low Light Vision, +2, +1 caster level with a small number of spells, the ability to communicate with plants, and a bonus to 3 skills.

The stat mod is not balanced, natural armor sure is nice, the ability to speak with plants at will w/no limit is great - any one of these could be worked into a race and be balanced - but you give them far to much.

...And lets compare more fully to some other races for a moment.

Lets not - I'm fully aware of what the races get.

...Does my race really seem that much more powerful than those 3?
Yes. Its my opinion - and you would get the same results if you plugged this fellow into savage species. Now, I do not think this race is as powerful as that system would suggest, and I think you could cut it back to make it a +0 ecl.

...Why play a Fighter as anything but a half-orc?

as per my example - 1/2 orc great w/str, but human gets the bonus feat and can thus fill into feat chain quickly, but dwarf is just plain tough and great for bull rush, saves, & HP, but elf is great with ranged combat. Each race offers the fighter a good niche in one of the many ways a fighter can focus.

...Why play a Bard as anything but a Gnome?

Because the human is a great skill monkey, but the 1/2 elf is great in social skills, but an elf is good dex (these guys need ac help), yada yada

...There is a very easy answer to all of thease questions though. People will play the class and race they WANT to play.

Ah, this I agree with.

...Thats why in Arcana Unearthed Monte Cook abandoned that crap...

Actually, they still use a balanced method for the races. The spell casting stat is treated as rather valuable - equal to str for balancing the race.

I like your race and the logic in its development.
I do think the race is over-powered.
I did respond to your question about evaluating it.
You do not have to agree with me - many do not.
I think the goal of +0 ecl races is a worthy goal.

Now - if my feedback is not helpful and you do not want to hear more of the same, I'll stop responding to this thread. This is your thread - let me know what you want.

B:]B
 

Now - if my feedback is not helpful and you do not want to hear more of the same, I'll stop responding to this thread. This is your thread - let me know what you want.

The only problems I have with your feedback is sidestepping things like this

Lets not - I'm fully aware of what the races get.

and keeping saying that things are your opnion (which I know) and not really giving the reasons behind the opnion (what I am interested in).

moving on..

Again, let us not debate AC source bonuses

I'm not debating the AC source bonuses. You keep saying that the natural armor bonus negates the Dex penalty. It doesnt. It ofsets the Armor Class factor of the Dex penalty...one out of 3 things the dex penalty affects.

No PC race in the core has a mental modifier in the core book. At the very least, consider it as valuable as a bonus to str for evaluating it. A race with a bonus to a spell casting stat would need to oppose it by double, +2 wis, -2 dex & cha, for example.

Not according to the Dungeon Master guide. The mental ability scores are very important...but only for certain classes. The physical ability scores...especialy Con and Dex, can be very useful for any class...whereas Wisdom isnt all that great for a fighter (accept for will saves). Dex adds to : AC, Reflex saves, many skill, ranged attack rolls. Wisdom adds to spellcasting for 2 prime casters and 2 minor casters, will saves, and some skills.

I understand your point, but they still gain an impressive ability. I do not argue the logic for giving it to them - but remember that it is THE EQUIVELENT of a 3rd/4th lv spell. Do not call it a spell ability - fine, but they still produce the same results (except better - they can not have it foiled by anti-magic, not that this will matter)

I think we're just going to have to disagree on this. I dont see it as being all that powerful. I'd say its about on par with Gnomes getting a free Spell Focus and Arcane Defense deal with a school of magic.


This race gets: +2 wis/-2 dex, Low Light Vision, +2, +1 caster level with a small number of spells, the ability to communicate with plants, and a bonus to 3 skills.

Well, lets compare (and no copping out this time)
You've stated my races abilities...now lets compare to some of the others..

take Elves. +2 Dex -2 Con Low Light bision. Immunity to all magical sleep effects. +2 to saves against a school of magic. The secret door detection ability. 6 free weapon proficiencies. And bonuses to 3 skills.


Take the Gnome. -2 Str +2 Con+1 to hit and +1 AC, +4 to hide from small size. Spell Focus (Ilusion). Low-light vision. +2 to saves against a school of magic. an additional +1 to attack against 4 species. +4 to AC against a creature type. 1 free exotic weapon proficiency. A bonus with 2 skills. and of course, 3 free cantrips once each per day..Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation


Halfling: +2 Dex -2 Str +1 to hit and AC, +4 hide due to small size. +1 to all saving throws. Additional +2 to saves against fear. +1 bonus to hit with thrown weapons and slings (essentialy Weapon Focus with several weapons). And a bonus to 4 skills.

and lets look at the dwarf to
+2 Con -2 Cha
Darkvision. Move at their full speed in any armor. +2 to checks to notice unusual stonework. Getting a free check to notice any unusual or hidden stonework by merely passing within 10 feet of it. Find stone traps as though a rogue. Always know depth underground. 2 free exotic weapon profs. +4 bonus to resist trip and bull rush. +2 to saves against poisons. +2 saves against all spells and spell like abilities . +1 to hit against 4 species. +4 dodge bonus to AC against a creature type. And a bonus too 2 skills.

Again..does my race really seem to get drasticaly more than any of those? Of course you did answer the question:

Yes. Its my opinion - and you would get the same results if you plugged this fellow into savage species. Now, I do not think this race is as powerful as that system would suggest, and I think you could cut it back to make it a +0 ecl.

But not why, which is what I want to know.


as per my example - 1/2 orc great w/str, but human gets the bonus feat and can thus fill into feat chain quickly, but dwarf is just plain tough and great for bull rush, saves, & HP, but elf is great with ranged combat. Each race offers the fighter a good niche in one of the many ways a fighter can focus.

That same arguement can be made for any and all race/class combinations..same with mine. Fort instance, one could want an Elven druid because of the Dex for AC and the free weapon profs (especialy now since in 3.5 druids can use whatever weapons without losing their powers) and the sensory skill bonuses.


Because the human is a great skill monkey, but the 1/2 elf is great in social skills, but an elf is good dex (these guys need ac help), yada yada

well the human thing especialy can be said of all classes. A Druid can certainly benefit from an extra feat and skill points.


Actually, they still use a balanced method for the races. The spell casting stat is treated as rather valuable - equal to str for balancing the race.

Faen get an Int bonus, and they get a Str penalty..like every other Small race I've ever seen. Verrik get +2 Wis/-2 Cha. My point was, in AU Monte Cook abandoned the idea that basic +0 races shouldnt have mental stat bonuses because it will make them "the best" for a given spellcasting class.
As near as I can tell, the stats are pretty much equal...some are just better for some classes than others...although the physical stats..especialy Dex and Con, are quute useful for all.
 
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By saying the natural armor negates the dex penalty - I mean the +2 natural armor is as good or better then +2 dex. True - the dex gives +1 ac, initiative, skill rolls, and reflex save. Very nice. But natural armor is hard to come by - works all the time, and is stackable. Savage species treats natural ac bonus as an automatic ecl boost - a good indication that I am not alone in considering it good. That is what I meant. This is in addition to the fact that the overall bonus to ac is higher then the penalty for lowering dex. Natural armor and dex are different animals - but a natural ac bonus is damn sweet!

I do not have the dmg in front of me - but the guideline of treating a mental boost as twice as valuable is my measurement. W/out the book in front of me, it is hard to debate this point.

We will have to disagree with the language issue. The real question, I think, is speak with plant a 1st level spell in your opinion, artificially raised in level? If you feal it is, then your suggested ability is fair for your game. IMO & world - speak with plants is definitly high end magic and very useful - it is worth the 3rd/4th lv slot it occupies.

Well, lets compare (and no copping out this time)
You've stated my races abilities...now lets compare to some of the others..


Well - this is how I compare races. Another system is Upperkrusts - we rate powers differently, though our end results are very similar. Use either of our systems - or the savage species - to get a feal for your race. Also - post your race on another board - see if you get a different response then mine. Take the average of the opinions...
Races should come to 4.5 or less

+2 +2 physical or mental statistic
-1 -2 mental statistic vs physical stat bonus
-1 -2 physical statistic vs mental stat bonus
-2 -2 statistic vs same type stat bonus
+/-1 +/- 10’ move, Base MV: M & L 30’, S 20’
+1/4 skills available as class skills do to race (each)
+1/4 each +1 to a skill roll
+1/2 low light vision
+1 dark vision 30’
+3/2 dark vision 60’
+1/4 reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½
+1/4 extra language known
-1/2 no race class
+1/4* 2 race classes
+1/2 Any race class (per humans)
+3/2 4+HD SR
+1/4 4 SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = +3)
+1/2 10 SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 5½)
+1 10’ clumsy flight
+1/2 every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality
+1 spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day OR
know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day
+1/2 each additional use
+1 each LV the spell is higher level
+1/4 natural attack, d4 or less
+1* treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush.
+1 scent
+1/4 able to take one or more MM feats
+1 natural armor - per point
+1/4 each additional form available.
+1/2 creature type provides immunity (giant, fey)
+3/2 as above but excellent immunity (undead)
+3/4* +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st
+2* extra feat at 1st, choice from list of 10+ feats
+1/2 +2 save Vs (poison & disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion)
+1/4 +2 save Vs (Language)
+0 Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
+0 Hold breath as if CON = CON+2
+1 use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if w all martial)
+1* +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV
+3/4 Heal 50% more HP/day of rest
+3/4 +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic)
-1/4 Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, move action to rise)
-1/2 Unable to run unless on all fours (as above)
*May only be taken once
Modifier for stat adjustment: modifiers for physical or mental (STR,DEX,CON or INT, WIS, CHA), including all bonus or minus, but not both at once, that equal or exceed 3 points, are further adjusted by 50% in the worst direction. Example below
+1 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON
bonus 1+2 = 3, so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5
penalty –2 = -2
total is 3.5-2 = 1.5 cost
+3 INT, -1 WIS, -2 CHA
bonus 3 so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5
penalty –1 –2 = -3, so –2 -1x 0.5 = -2.5
Combine both modifiers onto same creature
total 3.5 – (2.5, cut in ½, phy vs mental) = 2.25 cost
Why: high bonuses are hard to offset and allow abuse in a specialty class or ability focus.

The races come out to
HUMANS 2.75
DWARVES 7.25
ELVES 4.75
GNOMES 5.5
HALF-ELVES 3.5
HALF-ORCS 1.5
HALFLINGS 3.5
 

½ Low light vision
2 Bark skin +2 ac
2 Speak with plants (an arbitrary value I’m assigning it
- well under $ for this ability - call it a discount)
½ Plant affinity
1½ Skills
¼ Racial hide in forest bonus
2 Wisdom bonus +2
-1 Dexterity penalty –2

7 ¾ total – over the top by my system.

Possible ideas to balance
-1½ Move rate 20’, Unable to run faster then x3
-1 Charisma penalty –2
-¾ Effects that harm plants and trees also harm them

4 ½ total if above used.
Try plugging your race into upper krusts system - see how the results vary.
 

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