Divine Deciever [PrC]

Xath

Moder-gator
I'd like some help with a prestiege class I just made. I first analyzed all of the prestige classes in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and I think this one is fairly balanced when compared with them, but as I have never made a prestige class, I don't really know. Anyway, here it is.

Diplomatic Deceiver
Throughout the known universe, there are those who rely on quick wit and a honeyed tongue to escape sticky situations rather than brute force or physical prowess. Those who use their abilities to further the cause of good are often among the ranks of the Diplomatic Deceiver.
Bards are the most common diplomatic deceivers, though Sorcerers will sometimes join their ranks. Few other characters, except multiclass rogues, can meet the requirements to become Diplomatic Deceivers.
Diplomatic Deceivers rarely travel alone, instead traveling in small groups such as adventuring parties. Others become advisors to local government officials, lawyers, or messengers.
Hit Die: d6

Requirements
To qualify to become a Diplomatic Deceiver, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any Good
Skills: Diplomacy 10 ranks, Bluff 10 ranks, Perform 6 ranks, ability to speak 4 languages
Feats: One Exalted Feat
Spells: Able to spontaneously cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The Diplomatic Deceiver’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int) and Use Magic Device (Cha). See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Intelligence Modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Diplomatic Deceiver prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Diplomatic Deceivers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge: A Diplomatic Deceiver adds her class level to her bard level, if any, to determine her bardic knowledge and what bardic music abilities she can use and how often she can use them. In addition, her DD levels stack with her bard levels for purposes of determining the bonuses granted by her bestow courage ability. A Diplomatic Deceiver with no bard levels gains bardic music abilities as a bard of her class level.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, as the spell.
Saint’s Tongue: Diplomatic Deceivers excel at the way of the word. At 2nd-level, a DD gains a +1 inherent bonus to all Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th-level, +3 at 8th-level, and +4 at 10th-level. The effective diplomacy bonus is doubled when dealing with creatures of good alignment, and the effective bluff bonus is doubled when dealing with creatures of evil alignment.
Starmantle (Sp): At 3rd-level, a diplomatic deceiver gains the ability to use starmantle, as the spell, once per day. Her caster level is equal to her character level.
Bonus Language: At 3rd-level, and every other level after, the Diplomatic Deceiver gains a bonus language, not confined to those in her race, though Druidic is still prohibited.
Alter Self (Sp): At 4th-level, the Diplomatic Deceiver gains the ability to use Alter Self, as the spell, once per day per 3 character levels with the following exception. The duration of the ability is equal to 1 min/character level.
Sanctified Spells: A 6th-level Diplomatic Deceiver can use sanctified spells as though they were among her spells known.
Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level, a Diplomatic Deceiver gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. The class must spontaneously cast spells (as a sorcerer or bard does). She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Diplomatic Deceiver, she must decide to which class she adds each DD level for the purposes of determining spells per day and spells known.
Diplomatic Deceiver [Exalted Prestige Class]

Diplomatic Deceiver [Exalted Prestige Class]

Level Base Attack Fort Reflex Will Special Spells per Day
1 0 0 0 2 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge 1 level existing class
2 1 0 0 3 Detect Evil, Saint's Tongue+1 1 level existing class
3 1 1 1 3 Starmantle, Bonus Language 1 level existing class
4 2 1 1 4 Alter Self 1 level existing class
5 2 1 1 4 Saint's Tongue +2, Bonus Language 1 level existing class
6 3 2 2 5 Sanctified Spells 1 level existing class
7 3 2 2 5 Bonus Language 1 level existing class
8 4 2 2 6 Saint's Tongue +3 1 level existing class
9 4 3 3 6 Bonus Language 1 level existing class
10 5 3 3 7 Saint's Tongue +4 1 level existing class
 
Last edited:

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What?

So....feedback? Some help here? To make it easier, I will write down lettered options, that way when you reply, it will take all of 2 seconds.

Choose a letter.

A. Xath, this is the most brilliant prestige class I have ever seen. I can't think of a thing to do to it.

B. Xath, you crack-monkey, what are you thinking? I have never seen such an unbalanced prestige class in my life. You are an idiot. Scrap it and start over.

C. Xath, the prestige class is good, but the name is terrible. Come up with something more creative.

D. Xath, I don't like (this particular point) because (reason, ex] i say so)

E. Xath, I like (this particular point) because (reason ex] you are awesome)

Or write something original. Please help me...
 

I dislike PrCs the give a character the relevant abilities of a bard without the trouble of actually playing a bard. This is a minor annoyance of mine. The fact that a sorcerer multi going into this would progress as sorc with more skill points and lots of extras makes it seem a little too good. I would change the spellcasting to every other level and make the special abilities really shine.

its not much, but thats the feedback I can rummage.

Kahuna Burger
 

I had a chance to look over this in a little more detail, and primarily, I think it's a tad overpowered. So, one of our goals for making this prestige class work is to bring it down to something a little more in line with a normal prestige class.

Second, I'm not sure what you're looking for out of this class? A divinely inspired spy? An advisor to kings and queens? The concept for the class seems a little muddled, and doesn't really draw on any strong archtypes that I can think of as written.

The closest thing I got was the idea of a "Divine Deceiver." (ie, a spy for God). If that's the flavor you want, the first thing you need to do is get rid of the bardic knowledge and music abilities. That brings it down to earth in terms of power, but it still has some flavor problems.

Perhaps the "saint's tongue" is more of a "Honeyed tongue" and is used for espionage against dark cults, etc? If so, I'd switch Detect Evil for Undetectable Alignment (much better for spies), and make the alter self ability something more akin to, "Even though I am good, I can pretend to be something bad, and thus bring down this diabolic cult"

Just a start.
 

To Kahuna Burger

Looking it over, I realize that the PrC actually gets every advantage of being a bard except for 2 things. The Base Attack is the lowest offered in prestiege classes instead of the middle offered in bard, and the reflex save goes from being good to being crappy. I would propose fixing this by getting rid of the Bardic Music ability, but I still think spell progression should progress at every level in response to the complete suckage of combat. A bard going into battle with spell progression every level still will do crap for damage, seeing as how there are a total of 4 damage dealing bard spells. Of the three prestige classes in BED with 10 levels of existing spell progress, there is one of each A, B, and C level base attack (A being the best), 2-3 good saves, and about 13 special abilities. Though it seems that taking away Bardic Music leaves it a little under the norm for a prestige class because of the combat suckage. I don't really know. This is why I need feedback.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I detest the name Diplomatic Deciever. Let me know if you think of something better.
 

I really like both the name and the concept, but I don't see it as an exalted class. I mean, why can't a neutral or evil guy be a diplomatic deceiver?

It is currently overpowered. As you yourself noticed, bards basically give up nothing here. Let me throw a few things your way to prod you and see what you think.

First off, why does this guy gain bardic music and knowledge? Instead, why not give him something more socially-based- maybe an Ear to the Ground ability, that works sort of like bardic knowledge, but that tells him about what's going on around him right now rather than legends. So he might somehow learn that the local thieves' guild is about to steal the Duke's crown jewels or whatever, from his contacts or something.

Second, I don't see him as being a major spellcaster. I'd drop the spells to every other level or at least kick off 3 levels somewhere, and trade out the Sanctified Spell feat for something else. But you obviously like the idea of the DD as a major caster, so you might want to drop something else there somewhere instead. (As I said, I love the idea, but my dm good-villain drool kicked in when I first read the name, so I'll prolly do up something a lil different inspired by this- Master Prevaricator, I think? :))

I'd probably put a non-exalted twist on this guy, myself... but that's strictly personal preference. As I said, I really like the idea of evil (or, especially, neutral) diplomatic deceivers. So I would call Saint's Tongue something else (Snake's Tongue?). And, obviously, switch out the exalted stuff. But that's just me. :)

It's a really cool class, but it definitely needs something dropped- both sorcerers and bards really gain lots and lose nothing when they take this class.
 

Any clarification from Xath on what the concept we're trying to fill with the class is? If you're a divine spy (see above posts) then we have a good starting point conceptualy. A "Diplomatic Deciever" seems like it would be somebody who can start a war between rival factions, and make the factions think it was their own ideas...If so, the ear to the ground idea seems solid.

Is that what we're going for? Or do we just want a bump in power because bards don't really shine in anything...?
 

Completely Revamped for your pleasure

Lemme know what you think.

Divine Deceiver
Throughout the known universe, there are those who rely on quick wit and a honeyed tongue to escape sticky situations rather than brute force or physical prowess. Those who use their abilities for a higher (or lower) calling are often among the ranks of the Divine Deceiver. Divine Deceivers are master infiltrators who use their powers of persuasion and disguise to penetrate organizations normally closed to those of their kind. Once inside, the Divine Deciever uses the powers granted by her God to either guide that organization to her Deities service, or to bring about their downfall. Occasionally, the Gods call upon a Divine Deciever to simply observe an organization, collecting information for use in the empires and kingdoms of mere mortals
Bards are the most common diplomatic deceivers, though Sorcerers will sometimes join their ranks. Few other characters, except multiclass rogues, can meet the requirements to become Divine Deceivers.
Divine Deceivers rarely travel alone, instead traveling in small groups such as adventuring parties. Others become advisors to local government officials, spies, lawyers, or messengers.
Hit Die: d6

Requirements
To qualify to become a Diplomatic Deceiver, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any
Skills: Diplomacy 10 ranks, Bluff 10 ranks, Knowledge(any) 6 ranks, ability to speak 4 languages
Feats:
Spells: Able to spontaneously cast 4th-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The Diplomatic Deceiver’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha). See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Intelligence Modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Diplomatic Deceiver prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Diplomatic Deceivers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Jack of All Trades: At first level the divine deceiver can use any skill untrained, even those that normally require training, or are exclusive to classes she doesn’t have. She cannot, however, gain ranks in a skill unless she is allowed to select it.
Ear to the Ground: Similar to a Bardic Knowledge check, a Divine Deceiver may make a special Ear to the Ground check equal to her DD level + intelligence modifier. Instead of learning lore-like information about a subject, place, or event; a Divine Deceiver has a chance of divinely “hearing” current information about a subject as per the table below. Once an Ear to the Ground has been made about a subject, the DD must wait 1 week before attempting a check on the same subject again. If the check requires gleaning information from a subject’s mind, that subject is entitled to a will save where success is equal to the Ear to the Ground check. Special: If the DD has 5 or more ranks in Gather Information, she gets a +2 bonus to her Ear to the Ground checks.
DC Type of Knowledge Example
10 Common:known by at least a substantial minority of the local population A local proclamation recently released to the people in a nearby town.
20 Uncommon: but available, known by only a few people in the area OR Common in more detail Knowing who the head of the local thieves’ guild is.
25 Obscure: known by few, hard to come by OR Uncommon in more detail Reveals a plot of assassination of an important figure.
30 Extremely Obscure: known by very few OR obscure in more detail
Divine Caster: A Divine Deceiver casts all spells as a divine caster.
Undetectable Alignment (Sp): At will, as the spell.
Honeyed Tongue: Divine Deceivers excel at the way of the word. At 2nd-level, a DD gains a +1 inherent bonus to all Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th-level, +3 at 8th-level, and +4 at 10th-level. In good DDs (or neutral DDs with a good deity) , the effective diplomacy bonus is doubled when dealing with creatures of good alignment, and the effective bluff bonus is doubled when dealing with creatures of evil alignment. The opposite is true for Deceiver’s of evil alignment (or neutral DDs with an evil deity). Upon obtaining 1st-level of DD, neutral characters of neutral deities must choose which benefit they would wish to receive and may not change it.
Bonus Language: At 3rd-level, and every other level after, the Divine Deceiver gains a bonus language, not confined to those in her race, though Druidic is still prohibited.
Alter Ego (Sp): At 4th-level, the Divine Deceiver gains the ability to use Alter Ego once per day. This works much like the Druid’s Wild Shape ability, except that the Divine Deceiver may only transform into creatures with the same descriptor as she has (in most cases Humanoid). In the Alter Ego transformation, the Divine Deceiver must remain within one size category of her normal form.
Trickery Domain: A 6th-level Divine Deceiver can use spells from the trickery domain as though they were among her spells known.
Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level except first and sixth, a Diplomatic Deceiver gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. The class must spontaneously cast spells (as a sorcerer or bard does). She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Diplomatic Deceiver, she must decide to which class she adds each DD level for the purposes of determining spells per day and spells known. The DD casts all spells as a divine caster.

Diplomatic Deceiver [Exalted Prestige Class]

Level Base Attack Fort Reflex Will Special Spells per Day
1 0 0 0 2 Jack of All Trades, Ear to the Ground, Divine Casting -
2 1 0 0 3 Honeyed Tongue+1, Undetectable Alignment +1 level existing class
3 1 1 1 3 Bonus Language +1 level existing class
4 2 1 1 4 Alter Ego +1 level existing class
5 2 1 1 4 Honeyed Tongue +2, Bonus Language +1 level existing class
6 3 2 2 5 Trickery Domain -
7 3 2 2 5 Bonus Language +1 level existing class
8 4 2 2 6 Honeyed Tongue +3 +1 level existing class
9 4 3 3 6 Bonus Language +1 level existing class
10 5 3 3 7 Honeyed Tongue +4 +1 level existing class
 

Not sure yet about the overall balance, but you might want to clarify the part about divine casting. Does the Divine Deciever get to ignore spell failure in armor?
 

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