Commoner vs. Expert

This is not a Head-to-Head combat thread.

Instead it compares the differences between the "commoner" class and the "expert" class. Let's start with some examples.

Tom Tack-mender

Tom Tack-mender, Commoner L2; HD 1d4; hp 5; Init +0; Spd 30 ft; AC 13; BAB +1; Melee Mace +1 (1d6/ crit x2); AL NG; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; Str 10, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12.

Skills & Feats: (20 points)
Appraise: 0 ranks +1 Int = 1 (+2 syn for Armor, Horses, or Leatherwork)
Handle Animal: 5 ranks +1 Cha = 6
Craft Armorsmith: 5 ranks +1 Int +3 skill focus +2 MW tools = 11
Craft Leatherwork: 5 ranks +1 Int +3 skill focus +2 MW tools = 11
Ride: 5 ranks +2 syn = 7
Skill focus Armorsmith and Skill focus leatherwork; Language: Common

Equipment: Artisan’s outfit, Artisan’s Tools (Masterwork), Backpack with waterskin, Bedroll & Blanket, Candles (3), Chest with Lock (simple), Flint & Steel, Flask, Mace (light), Rope (50ft), Sack, Saddle (pack), Saddle (riding), & Studded Leather Armor (Masterwork). 30gp, 6sp, 5cp

Age 22; 56gp/year, CR .5

Tom is the head stable-hand at the Half-Moon Inn. It is along the eastern highway, couple of weeks travel from the capitol. Tom had been nearly finished his apprenticeship to a saddlemaker, when his father got sick. His family needed him to come home. The owner of the Half-Moon Inn knew his family, and needed someone who had experience with horses, so hired Tom.

One day a merchant was preparing to leave the inn when his driver came over with some bad news. “Blackie broke his harness again.”
“Well get out the spare one,” responded the merchant.
“That was the spare one”

The sound of the merchant swearing brought Tom out of the stable. When he found out the problem, he asked to see both harnesses. Using parts of both harnesses, plus some scraps from around the stable, Tom was able to piece together a working harness in a few hours. The merchant was grateful that so little time was lost, and insisted on paying Tom 2gp for the work.

Tom politely accepted, then offered, “If you could give me 5gp, then by the time you come back this way I could have another harness made for you, since you are now without a spare.”

The merchant was impressed with Tom’s initiative, so agreed. In time word got out, more travelers stopped at the inn and dropped off any horse gear they had that needed mending: bridle, saddles, even some barding for a couple of mercenaries.

Designer’s notes: With his ranks in Ride and Handle Animal, I felt a +2 synergy bonus to appraise horses was reasonable. Equiptment listed is Tom's personal gear, it does not include any merchandice he has to sell.

(I'll post the expert tomorow)

Gerald Saddlemaker, Expert L2

Gerald Saddlemaker, Expert L2; HD 1d6; hp 7; Init +0; Spd 30 ft; AC 13; BAB +1; Melee Quarterstaff +1 (1d6/1d6/ crit x2), Ranged: Sling +1 (1d4/ crit x3, 50ft); AL NG; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +1; Str 10, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12.

Skills & Feats: (40 points)
Appraise: 5 ranks +1 Int = 6 (+2 synergy for Armor, Horses, or Leatherwork)
Diplomacy: 5 ranks +1 Cha +2 Syn = 8
Handle Animal: 5 ranks +1 Cha = 6
Craft Armorsmith: 5 ranks +1 Int +3 skill focus +2 MW tools = 11 (+2 syn to make a living)
Craft Leatherwork: 5 ranks +1 Int +3 skill focus +2 MW tools = 11 (+2 syn to make a living)
Heal: 2 ranks +2 Healer’s Kit = 4
Knowledge, Nobility: 3 ranks +1 Int = 4
Ride: 5 ranks +2 syn = 7 (+2 to stay in saddle from Military Saddle)
Sense Motive: 5 ranks
Skill focus Armorsmith and Skill focus leatherwork; Languages: Common,

Equipment: Artisan’s Outfit, Artisan’s Tools (Masterwork), Backpack with Waterskin, Bedroll & Blanket, Bottle, Chest with Lock (average), Dagger, Flint & Steel, Healer’s Kit, Jewelry (27gp), Lantern & Oil (6pints), Mugs (2), Quarterstaff, Rope (50ft), Sack, Saddle (pack), Saddle (military), Sling & Bullets (10), & Studded Leather Armor. 15gp, 7sp, 6cp

Age 22; 61gp/year, CR 1

Gerald’s father was a master saddlemaker, with a shop on Hunter’s Gate Ave. He was recognized as the finest saddlemaker in the city. His customer’s were frequently of the nobility. With his sudden and untimely passing, his son Gerald inherited the shop. He has continued the success of his father, though many say that it is more due to his charm and manners, than his craft skills.

Designer’s note: In my opinion there is more to “making a decent living” than just “practicing your trade”. There is also selling the items you make. Gerald’s high score in Diplomacy should help him sell items more often and at higher prices, so I gave him a +2 synergy on “make a living” rolls. If players wish to buy his merchandise, he generally charges 10% over going rate.

Equiptment listed is Gerald's personal gear, it does not include any merchandice he has to sell.

So which is "better" the commoner or the expert?

The expert is more well rounded. He has higher HP, and better weapon selection. He has more skills available, and more points to spend.

Yet they both (in this case) have the same craft skill (to make an item). So if the players wanted to buy equiptment, they could get the same quality from the commoner, for less money.

From the DM's point of view, if 75% to 90% of the people in the world are commoners, yet players only interact with experts or "better", then the player's experience would not match the world they play in.

Any comments would be welcome.

MavrickWeirdo said:

The expert is more well rounded. He has higher HP, and better weapon selection. He has more skills available, and more points to spend.

Yet they both (in this case) have the same craft skill (to make an item). So if the players wanted to buy equiptment, they could get the same quality from the commoner, for less money.

From the DM's point of view, if 75% to 90% of the people in the world are commoners, yet players only interact with experts or "better", then the player's experience would not match the world they play in.

Any comments would be welcome.

Click to expand...

That's a fair assessment.

I think that the commoner class should represent the majority of artisans and crafters in a psuedo-medieval world. The expert class should be reserved for those that truly excel at their profession, or have an area of expertise in a less common field, such as weaponsmithing or alchemy. The expert may even have a bit of reknown among those in his field.

For example, PCs entering a town in need of a blacksmith to repair pots and pans, or make horseshoes, would most likely be served by a commoner with a few ranks in blacksmithing. On the other hand, PCs in search of a weaponsmith to repair their weapons or even forge masterwork items should seek out an expert, assuming the town even has one.

So to sum up, both classes could attain the same ranks in a chosen skill, but for flavor purposes I think the commoner should be relegated to more "common" professions, ones that even a small hamlet would likely have. The expert should be reserved for master craftsmen and practitioners of crafts considered to be too difficult, rare or expensive for the "common" man.

All, of course, IMHO.

Dirge

BLACKDIRGE said:

So to sum up, both classes could attain the same ranks in a chosen skill, but for flavor purposes I think the commoner should be relegated to more "common" professions, ones that even a small hamlet would likely have. The expert should be reserved for master craftsmen and practitioners of crafts considered to be too difficult, rare or expensive for the "common" man.

All, of course, IMHO.

Dirge

Click to expand...

But that still doesn't explain why the Expert Weaver has a greater weapon selection than the Common Weaver (I suppose better HP (health) due to greater wealth is justified).

Personally I'm still not convinced that a 'Commoner' class is actually needed since such an NPC simply needs a name, personality and a RP note.

Experts on the other hand do have greater potential to be ongoing NPCs and thus justify a stat block.

Talking of which BlackDirge and MaverickWeirdo you are both responsible for imho the BEST NPC writeups on these boards and I thank you for them. Ever thought of compiling your NPCs and putting them into a book/PDF?

Those NPC over a lifetime threads were brilliant...

Tonguez said:

But that still doesn't explain why the Expert Weaver has a greater weapon selection than the Common Weaver (I suppose better HP (health) due to greater wealth is justified).

Personally I'm still not convinced that a 'Commoner' class is actually needed since such an NPC simply needs a name, personality and a RP note.

Experts on the other hand do have greater potential to be ongoing NPCs and thus justify a stat block.

Talking of which BlackDirge and MaverickWeirdo you are both responsible for imho the BEST NPC writeups on these boards and I thank you for them. Ever thought of compiling your NPCs and putting them into a book/PDF?

Those NPC over a lifetime threads were brilliant...

Click to expand...

Good point about the weapon selection...

I like the idea of the Commoner class, though a good DM (not neccessarily me) can wing it...

Experts are even cool as PCs...

I dig "free" NPC stats too (by the way I need a Commoner2 farmers daughter and a Cleric7 adventurer for my next session, any help out there ).

The lifetime threads are a cool way to develop stories too...

BLACKDIRGE said:

That's a fair assessment.

I think that the commoner class should represent the majority of artisans and crafters in a psuedo-medieval world. The expert class should be reserved for those that truly excel at their profession, or have an area of expertise in a less common field, such as weaponsmithing or alchemy. The expert may even have a bit of reknown among those in his field.

For example, PCs entering a town in need of a blacksmith to repair pots and pans, or make horseshoes, would most likely be served by a commoner with a few ranks in blacksmithing. On the other hand, PCs in search of a weaponsmith to repair their weapons or even forge masterwork items should seek out an expert, assuming the town even has one.

So to sum up, both classes could attain the same ranks in a chosen skill, but for flavor purposes I think the commoner should be relegated to more "common" professions, ones that even a small hamlet would likely have. The expert should be reserved for master craftsmen and practitioners of crafts considered to be too difficult, rare or expensive for the "common" man.

All, of course, IMHO.

Dirge

Click to expand...

Actually, part of the point of my example was to disagree with the "elitism" of experts. There is nothing to prevent a commoner from being a master weaponsmith, he just won't be proficient with most of them.

The problem I have with the idea that commoners can't achieve excelence is that they have Level Advancement

A "L4 commoner weaponsmith", will be able to make a masterwork weapon, more quickly, with less materials, than a "L1 expert weaponsmith".

The real difference between a commoner and an expert is, a commoner has to specialize to do well (i.e. dump all his skill points into a couple of skills.) The expert is more "well rounded".

In the example above, I felt that if I wanted to give Tom +2 synergy to appraise horses, then he had to have 5 ranks of ride, so I wasn't able to spare any skill points for Use Rope, which I felt would be appropriate for this character.

Meanwhile Gerald is able to have all the skills Tom has, plus Diplomacy, Knowledge Nobility, and Sense Motive. So he is better able to make a living, even though his saddles are not any better.

(also IMHO)

Mav, you never fail to impress me.

Great thread.

I love the litle stories you weave for these NPCs. They really excite the imagination - even for the most common NPC (no pun intended).

Consider these guys to make their way to somewhere in the Kingdom of Gothanius.

Elf Bowyer; Commoner L3

Elf Bowyer; Commoner L3; HD 3d4-3; hp 5; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; AC 13; SQ Immune to sleep, +2 vs. Enchantments, Low Light Vision; BAB +1; Melee: Dagger +1 (1d4/ crit 19-20 x2); Ranged: Longbow +4 (1d8/ crit x3 /100 ft); AL NG; SV Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills & Feats: (18 points)
Appraise: 0 (+1, +3 Bows)
Craft: Bowyer 6 (+12)
Listen 2 (+5)
Search 3 (+6)
Spot 2 (+5)
Use Rope 2 (+3)
Point Blank Shot and Skill Focus Bowyer;
Languages: Common, Elven, & Sylvan.

Equipment: Arrows (20, Masterwork) in a Quiver, Artisan Tools (Masterwork), Backpack with waterskin, Blanket & Bedroll, Dagger, Flint and Steel, Leather Armor, Longbow, Rope (50ft), Sack, & Travelers Outfit;

Age 127, CR 1

Every elven community has at least one Bowyer; it is a position of great prestige and humility.

Great prestige, because the Bow is a significant part of the elven way of life. When used to hunt, it is a tool for providing food. Used in conflict, it is a weapon to defend home and kin. In practice, it is a sport of steady hand and still mind. The making of it is an art of wood, stone, sinew, and feathers.

Great humility, because a bowyer will spend much of their time teaching the children of the community. They teach them to be proficient with a bow and arrow. They teach them to use their eyes to spot movement. They teach them to be still, and truly listen. (A lesson for which most parents are grateful.) They teach their minds and bodies to search for useful materials (typically having them search for raw material that can be made into arrows). In short, they teach them much of what it means to be an elf.