[XPH] Updated Mind Thief

Come, see the nicely formatted variant core class!

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml#mindthief

And give me feedback!

-- N

Where is the class from originally? And can you summarize what you've changed? And yes, it's nicely formatted.

My gut instinct is that 6 skill points a lvl, sneak attack (albeit at a slower progression), a slew of bonus feats and one new power every level will make the class too powerful. I'd have to playtest it to be sure, though.

I guess this is a brand new attempt to create a psionic rogue in the sense that the psychic warrior is a psionic fighter.

I think you've give him too much. He has a slightly slower sneak attack progression (1/3 levels) and loses 2 skill points, uncanny dodge, special abilities over 10th level (and the pretty useless trap sense). He gains a vast array of psionic powers AND bonus feats? No, I don't buy it. It looks as if he gets a vast gain in power for relatively little given up.

It's original. I created it as a variant Psion/Rogue under the 3.0 PsiHB. With the addition of the Venom powers, it's become almost exactly what I want a PsiNinja to be.

How it differs from the PsiWar:
- 6 skill points, very good skill list. This is NOT "just a Rogue -2", though, because these guys need ranks in Concentrate, and will probably want some Use Psionic Device and/or Psicraft.
- Bonus Feat every 4 levels, starting at level 5 (vs. every 3 levels, starting at levels 1 & 2). Total of 5 bonus feats (vs. 8 for the Psi War).
- d6 HD
- Simple weapons, Light armor, no shields
- Sneak Attack (1d6 at 1st level, +1d6/3 levels)
- Psi Evasion at 2nd level (while you maintain Focus, you have Evasion), and Improved Psi Evasion at 9th level (while you maintain Focus, you have Improved Evasion)
- Different Power list. Some extra General Psion, Seer and Nomad powers, and very few combat-oriented powers. (Weapon boosts are still in there, as are the Venom powers.) This is a big balancing factor -- your PsiNinja isn't going to be throwing around Vampiric Claws of the Pain Hammer, nor even Stomp or Lion's Charge.

... but do take a look at the web site. It's much prettier.

-- N

Compared to the Rogue:

- Needs a good Wisdom for bonus PP and higher-level Powers (DC isn't a big deal, since the class lacks offensive powers)
- Needs to spend skill points in caster-stuff (Concentrate & Psicraft), gets fewer skill points.
- Fewer weapon proficencies (Rogues get bows & some other useful things)
- Slow Sneak Attack
- No special high-level abilities, but that's totally mitigated by the Powers & Bonus Feats
- No uncanny dodge (ouch!) or trap sense (whatever...)


I think it compares well with the Bard.

-- N

Sorry, when I read "updated" I was wondering from where.

Upon consideration, I'm fairly sure it's more powerful than other classes. I'd change this by changing power progression to a slower rate... probably one every other level like the wilder (iirc.)

Nevertheless, it's a nice design.

It's a nice design, but I do agree that it looks overpowered. The character concept doesn't really need bonus feats, so if you remove those it would look fine to me. If there are some psionic feats that you think are essential for this class, give a couple of them as specific bonus feats, but giving a bunch of general bonus feats is too much IMO. For example, I could see giving the class Speed of Thought for free at 5th level. I might also give them Deep Impact for free at 12th level, and say they can only use it with a sneak attack (though that may be too much too). But bonus feats that the character can freeely pick is too much.

If you must have bonus feats, then something else would have to go. I would recommend reducing skill points to 4+Int to level and maybe making Int their manifesting ability.

I wouldn't give them improved evasion for free either. Perhaps change the psi improved evasion such that it requires the mind thief to expend his psionic focus to use it. Something like, "Beginning at 9th level, if a mind thief fails an Evasion reflex saving throw, he may expend his psionic focus to take only 1/2 damage."

Is there a reason why they don't have the Trapfinding ability? Their search and disable device skills will go to waste without it. Also, I would also give them the rogue's selection of weapons, instead of simple weapons.

I'm a bit mystified by "Like a Psychic Warrior, a Mind Thief only gains Bonus Power Points at 1st level." Psychic Warriors get bonus PPs every level.

I think it would also be a good idea to give this class a few unique powers of its own. Part of the PsyWarrior's charm is that it has many powers that are unique to it.

A couple that instantly come to mind are Alter Self, Psionic and Spider Climb, psionic.

I would also reduce the level of a few of their powers, just as several of the PW's powers are lower level than they are for psions. For example, give them Knock, Psionic as a 1st level power, and Danger Sense as a 2nd level power.

Michael Tree said:

It's a nice design, but I do agree that it looks overpowered. The character concept doesn't really need bonus feats, so if you remove those it would look fine to me. If there are some psionic feats that you think are essential for this class, give a couple of them as specific bonus feats, but giving a bunch of general bonus feats is too much IMO. For example, I could see giving the class Speed of Thought for free at 5th level. I might also give them Deep Impact for free at 12th level, and say they can only use it with a sneak attack (though that may be too much too). But bonus feats that the character can freeely pick is too much.

Click to expand...

Are the psychic warrior's offensive powers really worth so little? I've taken a huge axe to the powers list, so these guys aren't going to be hitting nearly as hard (or as often). Thus, I think that the Feats are integral to the class -- that's where a significant portion of their combat ability is going to come from.

What's wrong with letting people choose these feats for themselves? You're willing to give away two of the more powerful ones -- one which has requirements that don't play to the strengths of the Mind Thief. (Giving away Deep Impact -- which has moderate requirements, which in turn are NOT in tune with the Mind Thief's strengths -- is overpowered.)

Michael Tree said:

If you must have bonus feats, then something else would have to go. I would recommend reducing skill points to 4+Int to level and making Int their manifesting ability.

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Whaaaa? Give them a STRONGER key stat? I thought you were trying to tone them down from being "overpowered"...

Again, don't compare them to "Rogue -2", compare them to Bards. They need Concentration & Psicraft, and probably tempted by Autohypnosis, so they've effectively got 4 skill points left.

Basically, they have the skill points to be any two of: sneaky guy, trap guy, athletic guy, personality guy. A real Rogue could do all four. So they're more like a Rogue/2, and don't need to lose skill points.

Michael Tree said:

I wouldn't give them improved evasion for free either. Perhaps change the psi improved evasion such that it requires the mind thief to expend his psionic focus to use it. Something like, "Beginning at 9th level, if a mind thief fails an Evasion reflex saving throw, he may expend his psionic focus to take only 1/2 damage."

Click to expand...

That was my first thought, but I couldn't decide if they should be forced to expend their focus before or after they find out if they've missed the roll, and if after, if they get to know how much damage they would otherwise take. It's easier mechanically to have players expend focus in more discrete situations.

I would consider moving Improved Psi Evasion into a Feat... but of course then it's important that they keep the bonus feats.

Michael Tree said:

Is there a reason why they don't have the Trapfinding ability? Their search and disable device skills will go to waste without it. Also, I would also give them the rogue's selection of weapons, instead of simple weapons.

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Just your vision. They've got Trapfinding. I don't think that giving them extra weapon proficencies would cure their "overpowered"-ness. I think that a level of a warrior-class (including Monk) should grant these guys significant benefits -- they are intended to be weaker combatants than Rogues, and with feats like Psionic Weapon available, that's tough.

Michael Tree said:

I'm a bit mystified by "Like a Psychic Warrior, a Mind Thief only gains Bonus Power Points at 1st level." Psychic Warriors get bonus PPs every level.

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A clearer way to say it is: "Like a Psychic Warrior, a Mind Thief gains only Bonus Power Points at 1st level." Make sense now?

-- N

Michael Tree said:

I think it would also be a good idea to give this class a few unique powers of its own. Part of the PsyWarrior's charm is that it has many powers that are unique to it.

A couple that instantly come to mind are Alter Self, Psionic and Spider Climb, psionic.

I would also reduce the level of a few of their powers, just as several of the PW's powers are lower level than they are for psions. For example, give them Knock, Psionic as a 1st level power, and Danger Sense as a 2nd level power.

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Please read the power list!

1) They get wall walker (psi spider climb).

2) They get many powers (esp. Nomad powers) at lower level. They get Shadow Body at 6th level, when it's 8th level for Psions. I'm honestly not sure if knock as a 1st level power is overpowered or not. I'm fine with the character waiting until 4th level to get Knock, and waiting until 7th level to get Danger Sense -- they don't get Trap Sense, let 'em sweat a little.

BTW, these "power-up" suggestions are still counter to your claim that it's an overpowered class.

-- N