Trying my hand at an alt.sorcerer...opinions wanted :)

RaZZer99 · Apr 27, 2004

I am starting a new campaign, and being dissatisfied with the flavor and balance of the sorcerer as is, I've decided this would a perfect time to revise it. I've read numerous alt.sorcerers that attempt to capitalize on the unnatural lineage of the sorcerer, but they simply won't work IMC where the sorcerer doesn't have all the ancestry baggage talked about in the flavor text and is presented more as alternative for players who dislike the style of wizardry. The basic idea of this alt.sorcerer is a sorcerer who knows few spells but he knows them very well and is able to tweak them a bit. Obvious inspiration was from the new Wilder class, but I didn't want to blatantly step on the poor Wilder's toes.

Alt.Sorcerer

BAB, Saving Throws, Hit Die, Weapon/Armor proficiencies, Skill Points per level, Spells per Day, and Spells Known are all the same as presented in the PHB.

Class Skills: Same as the PHB except added Diplomacy and Intimidate, and removed Bluff.

Special Abilities:
1 Summon Familiar, Mold Magic (1/day)
2 Intimate Spell Knowledge
3 Intimate Spell Defense +1
4 --
5 Mold Magic (2/day)
6 --
7 --
8 Intimate Spell Defense +2
9 --
10 Mold Magic (3/day)
11 --
12 Innate Spell
13 Intimate Spell Defense +3
14 --
15 Mold Magic (4/day)
16 Innate Spell
17 --
18 Intimate Spell Defense +4
19 Innate Spell
20 Mold Magic (5/day)

Mold Magic: Starting at 1st level, the sorcerer is bestowed a single use of the mold magic ability per day. She gains an additional uses of the ability at a rate of one per every five sorcerer levels. The sorcerer can use the mold magic ability to alter and increase the effects of her spells as follows:
+ Utilize one of the sorcerer's metamagic feats with out altering the casting time of the next spell cast. This ability allows the sorcerer to make use to the Quicken Spell feat if she possesses it.
+ Apply a +1 bonus to the sorcerer's caster level for the purposes of determining the duration of the next spell cast.
+ Apply a +4 bonus to the sorcerer's caster level for the purposes of determining the range of the next spell cast.
+ Apply a +1 bonus to the save DC of the next spell cast. This bonus stacks with any other bonus to spell save DCs she may have acquired elsewhere such as from the Spell Focus feat. The use of this ability requires two expenditures of the sorcerer's daily allotment of mold magic abilities.
+ Apply a +2 bonus to caster level checks of the next spell cast for the purposes of overcoming spell resistance. This bonus stacks with any other bonus to spell caster checks she may have acquired elsewhere such as from the Spell Penetration feat.
+ Reduce the XP cost of the next spell cast by ten percent.

Mold magic is an extraordinary ability and takes no action to activate. The sorcerer must decide whether to use the mold magic ability before her spell is cast. The sorcerer may expended any number of uses of the mold magic ability to a single spell as long as she does not exceed her daily allotment of uses. She may even mix and match the effects of the mold magic ability as she sees fit as long as she pays for each effect.

Intimate Spell Knowledge: Beginning at 2nd level, the sorcerer gains a +1 bonus to spellcraft checks against any spell or spell-like effects from her list of known spells. This bonus increases by +1 for every two sorcerer levels (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th level, etc.)

Intimate Spell Defense: Beginning at 3rd level, the sorcerer gains a +1 bonus to any saving throws against any spell or spell-like effects from her list of known spells. This bonus increases by +1 for every five sorcerer levels (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 14th level).

Innate Spell: At 12th level, the sorcerer has become so practiced with one 0th level cantrip from her list of spells known that she is able cast it at will once per round. There is no limit to the number of times the sorcerer may use this spell in a given day, even after she has already exhausted her daily allotment of spells. The sorcerer still must fulfill any and all components (verbal, somatic, and material) in order to cast the spell. The sorcerer gains another innate spell at levels 16th and 19th.

Opinions? Comments? Criticism? Too much and now too strong? Too little and still weak? Something hidesouly broken? I am mostly concerned with the balance of this sorcerer when compared to the wizard. Thanks for your input

RaZZer99 · Apr 28, 2004

*bump*

Khaalis · Apr 28, 2004

Even though I have a different view of the sorcerer, I hate to see such things go without comment, so…

RaZZer99 said:
I am starting a new campaign, and being dissatisfied with the flavor and balance of the sorcerer as is, I've decided this would a perfect time to revise it. I've read numerous alt.sorcerers that attempt to capitalize on the unnatural lineage of the sorcerer, but they simply won't work IMC where the sorcerer doesn't have all the ancestry baggage talked about in the flavor text and is presented more as alternative for players who dislike the style of wizardry. The basic idea of this alt.sorcerer is a sorcerer who knows few spells but he knows them very well and is able to tweak them a bit. Obvious inspiration was from the new Wilder class, but I didn't want to blatantly step on the poor Wilder's toes.

I would suggest sharing the new flavor text you intend for the class. The flavor text defines what the class is. How is it an alternate to the Wizard? What makes them different? How are they different? Why are they different? How do they become what they are? Where and how do they learn their talents? Are they educated in their abilities the way wizards are?

Also, if you plan on releasing this in any manner, I would suggest renaming the sorcerer as the one thing NOT OGL in the core book classes is the flavor text.

I am going to base my comments on the opinion that you see the sorcerer as nothing more than a wizard that learns magic differently and thus an Alt.Wizard.

BAB, Saving Throws, Hit Die, Weapon/Armor proficiencies, Skill Points per level, Spells per Day, and Spells Known are all the same as presented in the PHB.

All supports being an Alt.Wizard.

Class Skills: Same as the PHB except added Diplomacy and Intimidate, and removed Bluff.

Adding Diplomacy I agree with, as I think it is fitting to the class as well as to Wizards. However – why Intimidate? I don’t see wizards, or a wizardly sorcerer as being trained in Intimidation tactics.

Mold Magic: Starting at 1st level, the sorcerer is bestowed a single use of the mold magic ability per day. She gains an additional uses of the ability at a rate of one per every five sorcerer levels. The sorcerer can use the mold magic ability to alter and increase the effects of her spells as follows:
+ Utilize one of the sorcerer's metamagic feats with out altering the casting time of the next spell cast. This ability allows the sorcerer to make use to the Quicken Spell feat if she possesses it.
+ Apply a +1 bonus to the sorcerer's caster level for the purposes of determining the duration of the next spell cast.
+ Apply a +4 bonus to the sorcerer's caster level for the purposes of determining the range of the next spell cast.
+ Apply a +1 bonus to the save DC of the next spell cast. This bonus stacks with any other bonus to spell save DCs she may have acquired elsewhere such as from the Spell Focus feat. The use of this ability requires two expenditures of the sorcerer's daily allotment of mold magic abilities.
+ Apply a +2 bonus to caster level checks of the next spell cast for the purposes of overcoming spell resistance. This bonus stacks with any other bonus to spell caster checks she may have acquired elsewhere such as from the Spell Penetration feat.
+ Reduce the XP cost of the next spell cast by ten percent.

Mold magic is an extraordinary ability and takes no action to activate. The sorcerer must decide whether to use the mold magic ability before her spell is cast. The sorcerer may expended any number of uses of the mold magic ability to a single spell as long as she does not exceed her daily allotment of uses. She may even mix and match the effects of the mold magic ability as she sees fit as long as she pays for each effect.

Considering the nature of the ability I would consider this a (SU) not an (EX) ability. I might also suggest basing this ability off of their primary stat – Charisma and make the uses per day equal to Charisma modifier times per day or 3+ChaMod (like Turning) rather than 1 + 1/5 levels; especially since many of the effects are quite minor.

Intimate Spell Knowledge: Beginning at 2nd level, the sorcerer gains a +1 bonus to spellcraft checks against any spell or spell-like effects from her list of known spells. This bonus increases by +1 for every two sorcerer levels (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th level, etc.)

The numeric bonus is pretty hefty but not as high as something like Bardic Knowledge. Not sure I see a lot of value in it though since you cant ID Spell-Like Abilities (no verbal/somatic components), and IDing spells you already know, or know of, is what Spellcraft is in the first place. It’s a general knowledge of how magic works and the fundamental requirements of each spell and the outward effects they show once cast. Thus, I am not sure I like the flavor of this since “technically” not every caster’s somatic and verbal components are the same for the same spell – which is why they aren’t defined. So just because one sorcerer points his index finger and mutters “akash” to trigger a magic missile, doesn’t mean that another sorcerer doesn’t point all his finger (except the thumb) and waggle them at the target while saying “blunderbuss” when casting magic missile. So I am not sure where knowing a spell on your spells known list would necessarily make you any better at Spellcraft. Only study and dedicated learning really make you better at it.

Intimate Spell Defense: Beginning at 3rd level, the sorcerer gains a +1 bonus to any saving throws against any spell or spell-like effects from her list of known spells. This bonus increases by +1 for every five sorcerer levels (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 14th level).

Pretty substantial bonus but actually quite worthless unless the sorcerer knows mostly offensive spells.

Innate Spell: At 12th level, the sorcerer has become so practiced with one 0th level cantrip from her list of spells known that she is able cast it at will once per round. There is no limit to the number of times the sorcerer may use this spell in a given day, even after she has already exhausted her daily allotment of spells. The sorcerer still must fulfill any and all components (verbal, somatic, and material) in order to cast the spell. The sorcerer gains another innate spell at levels 16th and 19th.

There was a long discussion about this on my sorcerer threads. It was basically deamed worthless to gain a 0-level Spell-Like Ability at such high levels. Having 3 innate 0-level spells at 20th level is not really worth much and will be easily discarded if given any opportunity for PrCs.

Opinions? Comments? Criticism? Too much and now too strong? Too little and still weak? Something hidesouly broken? I am mostly concerned with the balance of this sorcerer when compared to the wizard. Thanks for your input

IMPHO I think it is still too weak since most of the abilities you have given are rather weak. If you really want the class to be identical to the wizard except for spell use, I would simply make the skill lists the same, and give the sorcerer the same feat progression as wizards except replace Scribe Scroll with Mold Magic 3+ChaMod/day. JMHO.

Beholder Bob · Apr 28, 2004

Class Skills: as PHB except add Diplomacy and Intimidate, and removed Bluff.

Sounds ok. Why remove bluff, add intim & diplo?

Mold Magic (x/day) should be a Su ability. I like the concept. I'd simplify it, though - either: cast at +1 caster level or +3 pierce SR/resist being countered/dispelled. Less text, easier to track.

Intimate Spell Knowledge Works good for me. While not overpowered - they know the spell well. Khaalis states components not the same - that is ok, the sorc sees the magic itself forming. Nice flavor, not too powerful.

Intimate Spell Defense +x Works ok if the sorc is a weapon platform. Move to LV 6, 9, 14, 18 and make it a save bonus against magic in general.

Innate Spell I agree with Khaalis. Perhaps gain unlimited detect magic at 12th. unlimited arcane sight at 18th.

Opinions? Comments? Criticism? Too much and now too strong? Looks fairly balanced. Need flavor text, too dry. The multiple abilities gained throughout the levels balances out with the meta magic (IMO) - I like the mold magic effect.

B

B

RaZZer99 · Apr 28, 2004

Khaalis said:
I would suggest sharing the new flavor text you intend for the class. The flavor text defines what the class is. How is it an alternate to the Wizard? What makes them different? How are they different? Why are they different? How do they become what they are? Where and how do they learn their talents? Are they educated in their abilities the way wizards are?

I did not write much flavor text yet because this is only a rough draft of sorts. But the little I did write is...

The sorcerer is a versatile spell caster who invokes arcane magic at her whim. Unlike the dreary wizard who analyzes and memorizes arcane formulas, the sorcerer is an artist that shapes and crafts her spells with a passion. She may not have a wizard's voluminous repertoire of spells, but for those she does know, she is an expert on their form and function, able to tweak their effects to suit her needs. The craft of sorcery is almost synonymous with wizardry in that they study the same basic arcane theory. But sorcery present itself as another approach to arcane magic allowing for spontaneous spell casting at the cost of a limited number of spells to choose from. Sorcery is a learned talent and apprentice sorcerers require several years of tutelage under the guidance of a much more accomplished sorcerer before they are able to master their first spells.

Basically they will be alt.wizards but with some slight differences between them. The relationship between the wizard vs the sorcerer is sort of analogous to a civil engineer vs an architect. The architect designs builds with a focus on aesthetics. The civil engineer, on the other hand, designs builds so they are safe, sturdy, loads are properly balanced, etc. The architect makes the building look good, but the civil engineer is the one who makes it work under the laws of physics.

Khaalis said:
Also, if you plan on releasing this in any manner, I would suggest renaming the sorcerer as the one thing NOT OGL in the core book classes is the flavor text.

Oh definitely not releasing this. This is scrictly for my homebrew campaign

Khaalis said:
Adding Diplomacy I agree with, as I think it is fitting to the class as well as to Wizards. However – why Intimidate? I don’t see wizards, or a wizardly sorcerer as being trained in Intimidation tactics.

They get intimidate because I imagine some sorcerers being able to flash a bit of spell as a scare tatic to reinforce their point. Picture it as something akin to the scene with Gandalf in FotR when he is inside Bilbo's house and intimidates him with sublte magic.

Khaalis said:
Considering the nature of the ability I would consider this a (SU) not an (EX) ability. I might also suggest basing this ability off of their primary stat – Charisma and make the uses per day equal to Charisma modifier times per day or 3+ChaMod (like Turning) rather than 1 + 1/5 levels; especially since many of the effects are quite minor.

I will definitely change to Su as that does sound more reasonable. About the uses per day, I would give them more but I was concerned about balance versus the wizard. One of the options allows for upping the save DC, but I am worried about run away DCs. If they had more uses per day, they could in theory throw them all into a single spell and up the DC by 4 or even 6 making the effects quite unavoidable to their hapless victim

But maybe this is not as bad as it seems. Thats why I need opinions.

Also if you have any ideas on other mold magic options, I'd love to hear them. I wish this sorcerer was able to shape his spells a bit more, but I can't think of any other spell statistics to tweak.

Khaalis said:
The numeric bonus is pretty hefty but not as high as something like Bardic Knowledge. Not sure I see a lot of value in it though since you cant ID Spell-Like Abilities (no verbal/somatic components), and IDing spells you already know, or know of, is what Spellcraft is in the first place. It’s a general knowledge of how magic works and the fundamental requirements of each spell and the outward effects they show once cast. Thus, I am not sure I like the flavor of this since “technically” not every caster’s somatic and verbal components are the same for the same spell – which is why they aren’t defined. So just because one sorcerer points his index finger and mutters “akash” to trigger a magic missile, doesn’t mean that another sorcerer doesn’t point all his finger (except the thumb) and waggle them at the target while saying “blunderbuss” when casting magic missile. So I am not sure where knowing a spell on your spells known list would necessarily make you any better at Spellcraft. Only study and dedicated learning really make you better at it.

The reasonings for this ability is that the sorcerer is an expert on the spells he does know. He should be able to to identify them with little effort. I was under the impression that the Detect Magic spell could be used to study the lingering auras of spells that were recently cast. Now imagine the scene of an arson. Our CSI sorcerer step into the charred building, looks around with Detect Magic, and instantly knows that a Delayed Fireball was used in the crime (assuming he knew that spell himself). As for spell-like abilities, I thought you could at least ID those with spellcraft, but if not perhaps I could add that ability to the sorcerer. If the monster is using a Sp that similar to a spell the sorcerer knows, he should be able to tell what is about to happen next. The method of bringing a spell or spell-like effect into play is not so important as the actual magic energies behind it which is where I feel the sorcerer's knowledge should lie.

Also, I never really seen anyone attempt to counterspell in game, but in theory

the sorcerer would also be an expert on counterspelling the spells he does know with this bonus to spellcraft.

Khaalis said:
Pretty substantial bonus but actually quite worthless unless the sorcerer knows mostly offensive spells.

Again, going with the theory that the sorcerer is an expert on his spells, he should be able to better defend against them.

Khaalis said:
There was a long discussion about this on my sorcerer threads. It was basically deamed worthless to gain a 0-level Spell-Like Ability at such high levels. Having 3 innate 0-level spells at 20th level is not really worth much and will be easily discarded if given any opportunity for PrCs.

I figured that these would not be worth much, but I wanted to add them for flavor purposes. Perhaps if I simply allowed all 0th level spells at will and then allowed the sorcerer to acquire a few 1st or even 2nd level spells at the very high levels?

Khaalis said:
IMPHO I think it is still too weak since most of the abilities you have given are rather weak. If you really want the class to be identical to the wizard except for spell use, I would simply make the skill lists the same, and give the sorcerer the same feat progression as wizards except replace Scribe Scroll with Mold Magic 3+ChaMod/day. JMHO.

Thanks for you input

It seems I was too cautious in my initial draft, so I will attempt to boost it a bit more. I don't want an exact copy of the wizard class because I don't want to trample the last shred of dignity the sorcerer has and all player classes should have some sort of unique flavor to them.

RaZZer99 · Apr 28, 2004

Beholder Bob said:
Class Skills: as PHB except add Diplomacy and Intimidate, and removed Bluff.

Sounds ok. Why remove bluff, add intim & diplo?

I'm considering adding bluff back in. The sorcerer needs a few skills to capitalize on his primary stat.

Beholder Bob said:
Mold Magic (x/day) should be a Su ability. I like the concept. I'd simplify it, though - either: cast at +1 caster level or +3 pierce SR/resist being countered/dispelled. Less text, easier to track.

That's exactly what the Wilder does and I don't want to step completely on its toes

Beholder Bob said:
Intimate Spell Defense +x Works ok if the sorc is a weapon platform. Move to LV 6, 9, 14, 18 and make it a save bonus against magic in general.

I'll have to think about this one. Thanks for the suggestion

Beholder Bob said:
Innate Spell I agree with Khaalis. Perhaps gain unlimited detect magic at 12th. unlimited arcane sight at 18th.

Interesting. Being able to constantly observe world in terms of magical energies is a great idea. Sort of similar to Shadowrun's astral perception. I will definitely add this.

Beholder Bob said:
Opinions? Comments? Criticism? Too much and now too strong? Looks fairly balanced. Need flavor text, too dry. The multiple abilities gained throughout the levels balances out with the meta magic (IMO) - I like the mold magic effect.
BB

Thank you for your suggestions

Khaalis · Apr 29, 2004

RaZZer99 said:
Basically they will be alt.wizards but with some slight differences between them. The relationship between the wizard vs the sorcerer is sort of analogous to a civil engineer vs an architect. The architect designs builds with a focus on aesthetics. The civil engineer, on the other hand, designs builds so they are safe, sturdy, loads are properly balanced, etc. The architect makes the building look good, but the civil engineer is the one who makes it work under the laws of physics.

This was the original impression I got. Considering this view of the class, it makes much more sense. They ARE wizards, they just learn to manipulate magic in a slightly different way.

They get intimidate because I imagine some sorcerers being able to flash a bit of spell as a scare tatic to reinforce their point. Picture it as something akin to the scene with Gandalf in FotR when he is inside Bilbo's house and intimidates him with sublte magic.

If it works for you – go for it. One way or the other they will get bonuses to Intimidate from their inherent need for Charisma anyway. As for LotR I would call that more the use of the Scare spell or a Minor Image illusion, but that’s just interpretation.

About the uses per day, I would give them more but I was concerned about balance versus the wizard. One of the options allows for upping the save DC, but I am worried about run away DCs. If they had more uses per day, they could in theory throw them all into a single spell and up the DC by 4 or even 6 making the effects quite unavoidable to their hapless victim But maybe this is not as bad as it seems. Thats why I need opinions. Also if you have any ideas on other mold magic options, I'd love to hear them. I wish this sorcerer was able to shape his spells a bit more, but I can't think of any other spell statistics to tweak.

Personally I would go with 3+ChaMod per day. Its an established mechanic. Now with that said, the way to limit abuse is to make it more like turning. You may only use the power once per round, thus may only Mold Magic once per round, each time costing one use of the ability. On the same note I would agree with BeholderBob and go with something a little more simple. Sometimes too many choices can be bad. In a design stage choices are good (such as feats) but in-play choices can bog down the game. When the sorcerer has to say “wait a minute I need to figure out what I want to do this round” and takes 5 minutes to pick which of his dozen Mold Magic options he wants to use – it’s a bad thing for the game in general.

I would suggest going with the following ability choices per use of Mold Magic:
* +1 Caster Level
* +2 pierce SR/resist being countered/dispelled
* +2 to the save DC of the next spell cast
* Use Spontaneous Metamagic

Spontaneous Metamagic: Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect the spell being cast. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher-level spell slot.

(Intimate Knowledge) The reasonings for this ability is that the sorcerer is an expert on the spells he does know. He should be able to to identify them with little effort. I was under the impression that the Detect Magic spell could be used to study the lingering auras of spells that were recently cast. Now imagine the scene of an arson. Our CSI sorcerer step into the charred building, looks around with Detect Magic, and instantly knows that a Delayed Fireball was used in the crime (assuming he knew that spell himself). As for spell-like abilities, I thought you could at least ID those with spellcraft, but if not perhaps I could add that ability to the sorcerer. If the monster is using a Sp that similar to a spell the sorcerer knows, he should be able to tell what is about to happen next. The method of bringing a spell or spell-like effect into play is not so important as the actual magic energies behind it which is where I feel the sorcerer's knowledge should lie.
Also, I never really seen anyone attempt to counterspell in game, but in theory the sorcerer would also be an expert on counterspelling the spells he does know with this bonus to spellcraft.

If the ability works for you – go for it. I can understand the logic behind it, and in the case of alt.wizard it works, it is just going to have very limited game application due to its link to spells known. If it were me, which its not

I would probably make it equivalent to Bardic Knowledge for spellcraft.

Again, going with the theory that the sorcerer is an expert on his spells, he should be able to better defend against them.

On this one I have to agree with BeholderBob. Unless the sorcerer is going to be nothing more than a battle caster, this has very limited uses, and if you want this style of bonus I would make it a universal save bonus against magic. I would either make it a flat bonus, or spread it out over a higher string of levels 6,10,14,18 or even 5,10,15,20. Personally I don’t see the ability as much of a boon granting a +4 over the levels against X number of known combat spells.

Personally what I would do if adding a defensive ability like this is grant a saving throw bonus versus all spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This lends more potency to the reliance on such a weak stat (same as the Modify Magic 3+ChaMod/day), and grants a solid ability. Granting it at 3rd level is on par with Divine Grace (still much better so not stepping on its toes). The only problem with early access is it is still leaving no incentive to stay in the class at high levels. With that said… What you need to ask yourself is do you care about their being incentive to stay in the class to 20th versus multiclassing out to a PrC? Even in my version, with the rather potent bonuses I grant at 20th level – the class is still better off in most cases to PrC, so this may be a losing battle to even consider.

I figured that these would not be worth much, but I wanted to add them for flavor purposes. Perhaps if I simply allowed all 0th level spells at will and then allowed the sorcerer to acquire a few 1st or even 2nd level spells at the very high levels?

You do NOT want to give ALL cantrips as unlimited spell-like abilities. No all Cantrips are created equal and you don’t want a sorcerer running around casting unlimited Ray of Frosts or Disrupt Undead.

What came out as acceptable balance on my version was Spell-Like Detect Magic at 2nd, a Spell-Like 1st-level at 5th, a Spell-Like 2nd-level at 11th, and a Spell-Like 3rd-level at 17th. However, there were still quite a few people that said this was still weak but they were a minority. Also keep in mind these were all set to Uses Per Day = ChaMod and are outside the spell’s known restriction.

Hope this helps some.

Trying my hand at an alt.sorcerer...opinions wanted :)

RaZZer99

First Post

RaZZer99

First Post

Khaalis

Adventurer

Beholder Bob

First Post

RaZZer99

First Post

RaZZer99

First Post

Khaalis

Adventurer

Similar Threads

Into the Woods