"I hate math"

High level Dungeons and Dragons involves a ton of math.

It is enormous fun having "stats" and "ratios" that reach the ceiling (and beyond), three, four or five actions for every one, and more options than you can possibly keep track of...

...or is it?

I had the pleasure of running an open gaming 14th level game at Origins, and I was genuinely surprised by the response.

"I hate math."

Multiple times. The rules seems to become overly cumbersome, and really bog down the game.

So, from the perspective of thinking ahead to 4th edition, what would you do to help improve the "high level" game?

Have you played a campaign above 12th level? If so, how many, and how high did you go? What seemed to be the pitfalls. What would be ways that these could be avoided from a game design perspective.

Has anyone out there in d20 land taken up this challenge yet?

Well, can you be more specific about the math to which you refer?

I am currently playing an 18th level Cleric. In order to speed things up, I have pre-calculated the affect of all buff spells (and in their various stackig combinations) on his stats, so that whne the time comes, I don't have to sit there and figure out To Hit, Damage, AC and Ability bonuses, etc.

As a DM, I have my lap top with me, and I use various Excel generators, as well as having the calculator program open.

Remember, though, as DM it is really up to you. If the rules bog down the story, screw the rules. They are meant to be a _guideline_. Do what's best for the story and the enjoyment of the gamers. The only time this might be a problem is with a min/maxer, munchkin, or rules lawyer. In the case of dealing with one of them, let them know that if they want to, they can figure out the math for you to help speed up the game while you take care of more important stuff. It shouldn't be up to the DM to track all the modifiers of the PCs. If they can't be bothered with the "math", tell them to accept the way you're going to do it (to make it faster) or do it themselves.

Of course, I'm fortunate enough to have two engineers at my table. ;-)

ashockney said:

Have you played a campaign above 12th level? If so, how many, and how high did you go? What seemed to be the pitfalls.

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I've DMed one campaign to 16th level, one to 23rd and the latest is going 13th currently. I've not had much problems with the math. It's true the game gets more complicated as levels increase, but most of the math is done before the actual gaming, and written on the character sheets. So actual play has always been pretty fast.

Now designing adventures can be very strenuous in this department, but nothing too much (I should probably mention that I'm soon to be MSc in applied math). To counter that I used a lot of pre-made adventures, or standard monsters from the book. Those solutions become increasingly harder at higher levels. When I had to do stats I played quite loose with the skill points for example. No point in making correct calculations, just choose a number of skills that are maxed out.

What would be ways that these could be avoided from a game design perspective.

Has anyone out there in d20 land taken up this challenge yet?

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As my experiences aren't too bad I've not made any big 'corrections'. If it works ..

Deimodius said:

As a DM, I have my lap top with me, and I use various Excel generators, as well as having the calculator program open.

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This is why I refuse to DM 3.x any longer. If I have to use a spreadsheet to keep track of stuff while running, that sort of turns what should be "fun" into "work" AFAIC.

When running Warhammer or Basic D&D I need 1 rulebook, my DM's screen, some dice, a pencil and either a published adventure or a few pages of hand-written notes. That's it.

So yeah, put me in the "I hate math (while gaming)" camp.

Ourph said:

When running Warhammer or Basic D&D I need 1 rulebook, my DM's screen, some dice, a pencil and either a published adventure or a few pages of hand-written notes. That's it.

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In this regard Warhammer is a non-solution. The system just breaks at high power levels, it doesn't make it easier. Just as well you could play 3E below, say, level 10.

ashockney said:

High level Dungeons and Dragons involves a ton of math.

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I've played spell-casters up to 12th level, one semi-spellcaster to 18th. Of course, I've GMed creatures of higher levels than those. I don't find there is any real math involved in D&D, period, and I despised math in high school. Of course, I've played Champions, Rolemaster and Classic Traveller; what little bit of math is in D&D might as well not exist.

There is no problem unless the players and the GM are not organized. It's really not so hard to write down all the normal plusses to hit and damage you have in that Weapon box on the character sheet, add that to a d20 roll and give the number. If you're adding and re-adding all that stuff each time you hit, you're doing something wrong.

Damage adds from music, spells and what-not; that's the domain of the spell-casting player. If they can't say 'I've cast Spell X; everyone adds +11 to damage', then they should be playing another class. If the GM can't keep track of those things, find another GM who knows how to write a half-page of notes and organize his NPC's.

If you have to have calculators and spreadsheets around to do anything but add up treasure and XP, then you need to sit down and do all that weapon calculation beforehand, or write some brief notes on the few spells that actually require you to keep track of numbers.

Deimodius said:

Well, can you be more specific about the math to which you refer?

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More options, more actions, more dice, more modifiers...

Here's a great example from Origins: A fighter/rogue with Expert Tactician, 4d6 sneak attack, a holy weapon, and Greater Invisibility, (Mass) Haste, and had drunk a potion of Bull's Strength. Wielding a keen falchion with improved crit. Now, her bonuses to hit were pre-calc'd with bull's str, but not the +1 from haste (from party), or the +2 from fighting invis, or the +2 if she could get flanking. The attack routine could be anywhere from one - four depending upon movement, haste, and expert tactician. If she hit, she has a 45% chance of threatening. For each hit, she deals 2d4+8 damage per swing +4d6 sneak +2d6 holy (what multiplies)? At the end of this little routine, the cleric reminded them that they just cast prayer for another +1 to hit and damage to each roll. (Rolling to hit required up to 8 rolls with up to six modifiers, and damage required rolling and adding up 8 dice per attack times 4 attacks + with up to seven modifiers per attack).

Deimodius said:

I am currently playing an 18th level Cleric. In order to speed things up, I have pre-calculated the affect of all buff spells (and in their various stackig combinations) on his stats, so that whne the time comes, I don't have to sit there and figure out To Hit, Damage, AC and Ability bonuses, etc.

As a DM, I have my lap top with me, and I use various Excel generators, as well as having the calculator program open.

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As do I. I had every statistic for every villian in the module in a six tab spreadsheet. I was able track and sort initiatives, and roll all "to hit" and damages for each attack routine with one click. It still took over an hour to run one encounter with six players and 9 villians. Should it be this hard?

Deimodius said:

Remember, though, as DM it is really up to you. If the rules bog down the story, screw the rules. They are meant to be a _guideline_. Do what's best for the story and the enjoyment of the gamers. The only time this might be a problem is with a min/maxer, munchkin, or rules lawyer. In the case of dealing with one of them, let them know that if they want to, they can figure out the math for you to help speed up the game while you take care of more important stuff. It shouldn't be up to the DM to track all the modifiers of the PCs. If they can't be bothered with the "math", tell them to accept the way you're going to do it (to make it faster) or do it themselves.

Of course, I'm fortunate enough to have two engineers at my table. ;-)

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Amen. But are there any other solutions out there.

I will look for some commonalities in the thread. So far, it's engineering/math/adult and heavy use of Excel.

Numion said:

I've DMed one campaign to 16th level, one to 23rd and the latest is going 13th currently. I've not had much problems with the math. It's true the game gets more complicated as levels increase, but most of the math is done before the actual gaming, and written on the character sheets.

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Should you HAVE to count on the players to spend from one to four hours pre-calc'ing all these modifiers? Can you really account for every modifier quickly and easily without some kind of computer help?

Numion said:

Now designing adventures can be very strenuous in this department, but nothing too much (I should probably mention that I'm soon to be MSc in applied math). To counter that I used a lot of pre-made adventures, or standard monsters from the book. Those solutions become increasingly harder at higher levels. When I had to do stats I played quite loose with the skill points for example. No point in making correct calculations, just choose a number of skills that are maxed out.

Click to expand...

Wow! What great points. Instead of spending time doing more complex character development, playtesting an adventure, or writing additional background for the campaign or characters, the high level DM is forced to "build the adventure". By "buidling" they must stat out on an extensive spreadsheet, each encounter so that it is ready at game time. A noticable absence from most high level modules (12th level plus) the aforementioned "stat blocks" with different levels of buffs. I think Monte's been pretty good about including such things in his adventures.

WayneLigon said:

I don't find there is any real math involved in D&D, period, and I despised math in high school.

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Interesting viewpoint. See my earlier response to Deimodus for an example of the math that can be involved. Would someone who's really good at math like to take a crack at that fighter/rogue's calculus-filled probability to hit and damage a creature each round? Makes playtesting fun, doesn't it?

WayneLigon said:

There is no problem unless the players and the GM are not organized. It's really not so hard to write down all the normal plusses to hit and damage you have in that Weapon box on the character sheet, add that to a d20 roll and give the number. If you're adding and re-adding all that stuff each time you hit, you're doing something wrong.

Damage adds from music, spells and what-not; that's the domain of the spell-casting player. If they can't say 'I've cast Spell X; everyone adds +11 to damage', then they should be playing another class. .

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I perceive a very important conclusion from the above. If you're going to add a modifier, it needs to stick. Period. Stacking, while it works on paper to help place necessary ceilings to the high level game, perhaps causes too much confusion. Tactically, the way the game is designed, it may become overly cumbersome at higher levels to make distinctions between when certain modifiers should and shouldn't apply throughout an action.

WayneLigon said:

If the GM can't keep track of those things, find another GM who knows how to write a half-page of notes and organize his NPC's.

If you have to have calculators and spreadsheets around to do anything but add up treasure and XP, then you need to sit down and do all that weapon calculation beforehand, or write some brief notes on the few spells that actually require you to keep track of numbers.

Click to expand...

My experience has been very different. My Excel spreadsheet for this adventure had over 369 lines of statistics and modifiers to keep track of for four encounters.

ashockney said:

Should you HAVE to count on the players to spend from one to four hours pre-calc'ing all these modifiers? Can you really account for every modifier quickly and easily without some kind of computer help?

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Yes, you should count on the players to do that because it's their responsibility to do so. I can account for all modifiers without the aid of a computer; I'm expected to do so, so I developed that capability and employ it.

Wow! What great points. Instead of spending time doing more complex character development, playtesting an adventure, or writing additional background for the campaign or characters, the high level DM is forced to "build the adventure". By "buidling" they must stat out on an extensive spreadsheet, each encounter so that it is ready at game time. A noticable absence from most high level modules (12th level plus) the aforementioned "stat blocks" with different levels of buffs. I think Monte's been pretty good about including such things in his adventures.

Click to expand...

RPGs are not a storytelling medium. They're about mission-oriented dynamic problem-solving scenarios. It shouldn't be a surprise that a competant GM is one that focuses more about constructing the scenario than anything else.