Sorcerer Variant

Zelgadas

First Post
Well, I've gone and done it. I've created a sorcerer variant. I did it primarily because I don't like the fact that sorcerers feel sort of like 'wizards, but with spontaneous casting', but also because sorcerers feel like 'wizards, but not as good'. At any rate, I've made the sorcerer a little more powerful and a little more different from the wizard. Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

Variant Sorcerer
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Zelgadas said:
Well, I've gone and done it. I've created a sorcerer variant. I did it primarily because I don't like the fact that sorcerers feel sort of like 'wizards, but with spontaneous casting', but also because sorcerers feel like 'wizards, but not as good'. At any rate, I've made the sorcerer a little more powerful and a little more different from the wizard. Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

Variant Sorcerer

I looked at the variant and it seems fairly well thought out and slightly OP but I think that is ok. If you are looking for a variant that really works well I think check out Book of eldritch might 2 "Song and Soul" it has a variant sorcerer and bard in it and I think that they are both good variants. I do like the variant you made and am thinking about trying it in my next game.
 

Zelgadas said:
Well, I've gone and done it. I've created a sorcerer variant. I did it primarily because I don't like the fact that sorcerers feel sort of like 'wizards, but with spontaneous casting', but also because sorcerers feel like 'wizards, but not as good'. At any rate, I've made the sorcerer a little more powerful and a little more different from the wizard. Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

Variant Sorcerer


Nice...
Personally I don't like the imitate spell ability. It's cool enough, but I don't like it. Perhaps modified... in fact, the first mod I thought of was to allow the imitation of the spell but only in countering the spell. Which I don't think that you could do the way it's written, (it has to be cast on his next turn, therefore can't be used to counter.) This improved counterspelling ability fits well with the sorc's feel of being intimately and intuitively connected with spells, without making it so that they can overcome (even a little) their main weakness, that of being able to actually cast only a very few spells.

Alternatively, I like the idea of granting Arcane Sight as if the spell with that name (level three) has been made permanent with Permanency.

Of course, I also think that sorc's should get skill points of 4+int level, and a few more cha based class skills.

Just some random comments on my own. Overall I approve of the class... Well, I really do strongly dissaprove of the imitate spell ability as it is.
 

Dunno,

Why the better combat table?

It looks like you crossbreed the Sorcerer and the Battle sorcerer. Spell weaving, I am already using a similar variant in my campaign and power of the will can be interesting, I already give Eschew material as a first level bonus feat for the sorcerer. I am also using 4 skill point per level and the sorcerer can decide that two CHA based skills are class skill instead of bluff.

But I don't like the fact that you improved the Sorcerer combat skills for less spellcasting powers. I still prefer to have the base sorcerer and the battle sorcerer than using this hybrid. JMHO

Edit : I am am not particularly fond of the last two abilities
 
Last edited:

Fewer known spells as per the battle sorcerer? No thanks. Battle Sorcerers are gimpy enough spellcasters let alone making these traits for the base Sorcerer. Don't see how this could over-powered, quite the contrary really. Needs alot more omph to survive with so few known spells (no flexibility spell-wise). Nice looking site btw, sharp.

Check out the sticky at the top for the list of all the house rule forum's Sorcerer Variants, the one we use for our groups' (2 game groups) campaigns is in my sig.
 

ARandomGod said:
Nice...
Personally I don't like the imitate spell ability. It's cool enough, but I don't like it. Perhaps modified... in fact, the first mod I thought of was to allow the imitation of the spell but only in countering the spell. Which I don't think that you could do the way it's written, (it has to be cast on his next turn, therefore can't be used to counter.) This improved counterspelling ability fits well with the sorc's feel of being intimately and intuitively connected with spells, without making it so that they can overcome (even a little) their main weakness, that of being able to actually cast only a very few spells.

Alternatively, I like the idea of granting Arcane Sight as if the spell with that name (level three) has been made permanent with Permanency.

Of course, I also think that sorc's should get skill points of 4+int level, and a few more cha based class skills.

Just some random comments on my own. Overall I approve of the class... Well, I really do strongly dissaprove of the imitate spell ability as it is.

I'm still working on the class, so your comments are appreciated. I originally thought of making Imitate Spell a counterspelling ability, but I think that the Improved Counterspell feat handles that rather nicely, and I wanted to give sorcerers a bit more versatility.

As for the extra skill points; I had already given the sorcerer a better BAB, a higher hit die, an extra class skill, the ability to cast in light armor, a martial weapon proficiency, and some new abilities; more skill points seemed like overkill. Maybe it isn't, though . . .

DarkMaster said:
Why the better combat table?

It looks like you crossbreed the Sorcerer and the Battle sorcerer.
. . .
I am am not particularly fond of the last two abilities

Actually, the Battle Sorcerer was what I started with as a base. My thinking is this: a sorcerer's abilities are innate, right? So wouldn't he have time to learn how to defend himself properly? The wizard sucks at straight combat because he spends all of his time studying. The sorcerer learns through experience, so why isn't he better at things other than spellcasting? It never made much sense to me, as written.

As for the last two abilities, I kind of agree with you; I prefer the first two to the latter to quite a lot, and am open to suggestions for replacement abilities.

Liquidsabre said:
Fewer known spells as per the battle sorcerer? No thanks. Battle Sorcerers are gimpy enough spellcasters let alone making these traits for the base Sorcerer. Don't see how this could over-powered, quite the contrary really. Needs alot more omph to survive with so few known spells (no flexibility spell-wise). Nice looking site btw, sharp.

Question: do you think that, if the class had the same BAB, hit dice, and ability to cast in light armor, but had the base sorcerer's normal casting ability, it would still be balanced? I'm not trying to be snide here, I'm actually asking the question. I'm trying to figure out a good way to build a variant sorcerer, because I don't particularly like the one in the PHB. Oh, and thanks for the praise on my site ;)
 

Zelgadas said:
My thinking is this: a sorcerer's abilities are innate, right? So wouldn't he have time to learn how to defend himself properly? The wizard sucks at straight combat because he spends all of his time studying. The sorcerer learns through experience, so why isn't he better at things other than spellcasting? It never made much sense to me, as written.

That's why giving the Sorc more skill points makes sense, as it shows how the sorc has more time to spend learning other skills. Plus the core sorc already gets weapon proficiency with all Simple Weapons (including spears for a total of 17 weapons) as opposed to the Wizard who gets proficiency only 5 weapons. Clearly the core sorc already is more skilled in combat than the wizard.


Question: do you think that, if the class had the same BAB, hit dice, and ability to cast in light armor, but had the base sorcerer's normal casting ability, it would still be balanced? I'm not trying to be snide here, I'm actually asking the question. I'm trying to figure out a good way to build a variant sorcerer, because I don't particularly like the one in the PHB. Oh, and thanks for the praise on my site ;)

We tried that permutation of a light-armor-casting-variant but it turned out to be a little too good and also stepped on the toes of the bard (making it completely obsolete, though perhaps not entirely a bad thing heh). We also tried the increased hit-die but I found it much more flavorful to just add other things to the class than HD or light-armor, such as Bloodline Spells (spontaneous arcane domain spells, along with two unique class skills relevant to the sorcerer's chosen bloodline: source of their magic-infused blood), Augment Familiar, and Bonus Metamagic Feats in an attempt to fill-out the class at higher levels making it worthwhile to pursue besides a PrC. The experiment turned out quite well but, as you can see, many folk have their own versions that suit them. The Sorcerer is the new 3e ranger in 3.5e... ;)

It isn't as easy as it would seem to produce a balanced version of a variant sorc. For some reason you start tweaking the known spells (up or down) you get massive haywire in balance. # of known spells go up = broken, # of known spells go down = too weak. So we ended up leaving them the same and went with the spontaneous arcane domain spells (Arcane Bloodline Spells). Instead of subtracting or adding to known spells, we just subtracted 1 slot/level/day across the board (so base 5 instead of base 6 as with the battle sorcerer) and inserted Arcane Bloodline spells at each spell level cast 1/day. Essentially racial spells (i.e. Bloodline) cast 1/day but can be used to cast down level by expending higher slots if desired (for limited flexibility). We left these as regular spells and not spell-like abilities so that these spells could still be altered with metamagic feats.

It also made more sense that the Sorc should be able to metamagic at least as well as a wiz could (or at least have that capability). Core sorc left the sorc lagging in the metamagic department by one level behind the wiz due to getting higher slots one level later. This was remedied somewhat by giving the Sorc 0 slots for 2nd level spells at 3rd level, but without any known spells of 2nd level this only left the Sorc with an extra slot if they had the bonus spell due to a high enough Cha mod. This higher level bonus slot could be used to cast a metamagic spell if so desired, giving the limited ability to the sorc, as well as access to their bloodline spell to boot. This also gave the Sorc a boost in the early levels where the core sorcerer is at it's weakest and the bonus levels out at the higher levels, essentially balancing the class out.

For some great ideas and more discussion on balance for the class (which should help you get a better "feel" for balance of the class, for our version we just play-tested the heck out of different permutations until we found something that was more balanced/playable across the 1-20 level spread and flavor spells and abilities). So I definately suggest checking out past threads on other variants.

Well, that's the process our variant went through and the problems with the class we attempted to address in a nut-shell. Hope it'll give you some insight into the weaknesses of the core class vs building your own variant.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Liquidsabre said:
It isn't as easy as it would seem to produce a balanced version of a variant sorc. For some reason you start tweaking the known spells (up or down) you get massive haywire in balance. # of known spells go up = broken, # of known spells go down = too weak. So we ended up leaving them the same and went with the spontaneous arcane domain spells (Arcane Bloodline Spells). Instead of subtracting or adding to known spells, we just subtracted 1 slot/level/day across the board (so base 5 instead of base 6 as with the battle sorcerer) and inserted Arcane Bloodline spells at each spell level cast 1/day. Essentially racial spells (i.e. Bloodline) cast 1/day but can be used to cast down level by expending higher slots if desired (for limited flexibility). We left these as regular spells and not spell-like abilities so that these spells could still be altered with metamagic feats.
Cheers!

It's funny you should mention this, because I started experimenting with pretty much the exact same concept yesterday. Basically, I've subtracted one known spell from each level and replaced with a bloodline spell. I'm also planning on instituting additional class skills based on bloodline, and I'm planning on giving the sorcerer special blooldine abilities (possibly some sort of metamagic-esque power) at 1st, 10th, and 20th level. So far I've also gotten rid of the Arcane Blood and Imitate Spell abilites (though I've kept the other two, because I like them), and given the 15th level sorcerer arcane sight at will. I'm still toying with things like hit dice and BAB, as well as being able to cast in armor.
 

Yeah, the spells known are low enough as is, but likewise shouldn't be much higher.

Making the sorcerer more of a combat character also doesn't look right, since the sorcerer is still a primary spellcaster.

What they really are lacking IMHO are better skill points and some bonus metamagic feats/Eschew Materials.

Adding in some flavor via bloodlines is a nice idea, too.

In the first thread in this forum, you find various links to sorcerer variants (including the bloodline one, and my rather simple one).

Bye
Thanee
 
Last edited:

Zelgadas said:
Well, I've gone and done it. I've created a sorcerer variant. I did it primarily because I don't like the fact that sorcerers feel sort of like 'wizards, but with spontaneous casting', but also because sorcerers feel like 'wizards, but not as good'. At any rate, I've made the sorcerer a little more powerful and a little more different from the wizard. Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

Variant Sorcerer

Yea, improved counterspell does do the same, but this would be a free feat, with a flavor that fits better.

I understand the desire for improved versitility. Especially with the fewer number of spells they've got in that version.

(added in an edit: Now, as to you're question of why shouldn't they have learned to defend themselves? They should have... but I think that they should have by improving spellcasting rather than mundane armor and weapons. Seriously, a higher level sorc really shouldn't be beating things with sticks of metal anyhow. It's ... undignified. Of course, learning to cast in armor is different, but if you make them pay for that armor use with a feat it better represents the time spent learning. Or to say if you give that option then it's there for those who want to spend the resources, without taking away from the spellcasting for those who don't want to. On the other hand, there are some who want a sorc who also beats things with sticks, and your version does seem to do that fairly well. I especially like the Arcane Blood, and I'm snatching that idea.)

Further points, not so much on yours, but from my own ideas on variants...
I've never liked the idea of higher combat ability. The sorc really isn't about that... I personally changed spontainiously cast spells, making it a spell like ability, and therefore it comes with free eschew (all) components. Now, I thought that was a bit too powerful, so I also increased the casting time of all spontaniously cast spells by one move action for each V, S, M, or focus in the spell description. The casting time can be decreased by one move action for each V, S, M, or focus that's used (minumim casting time as listed under casting time of the spell). This gives the sorc the interesting ability to use different components for any particular casting. And I left the sorc with the same number of spells known, BAB, and HD. This improves spellcasting ability, which I think should be the thrust of the class, instead of giving them battle ability, which seems almost superfluous (OK, EVERYone wants higher HD, but I still like the flavor of granting spell abilities instead of even that).

Then I added in a different descriptor of the spellcasting that a sorc does. After all, I did just say that the sorc doesn't actually "cast" spells, but somehow learns spell like abilities. How does that work?

Well, the sorc DOES cast spells. Or, rather, conducts rituals that set up spell "matrixes" within the sorcs mind. After a matrix has been laid down the sorc only needs to send some power through it to have the spell take effect. There are *slow* spots in the spell, where the original Verbal, Material, Somatic, or Focus was needed for the spell, and these can be overcome by mimicing the component in question during the channeling of the energy through the matrix. The proper components are needed during the ritual, the components don't need to be as exact when channeling energy through the matrix. This is represented by allowing alternate components, and also by a decreased arcane spell failure when wearing armor. Enough to cancel out completely light armor spell failure. Alternatively, of course, if the sorc always does not use somatic components, there is no spell failure in any amount of armor. I do not, on the other hand, give armor proficiency. If you want it burn a feat (up to three) on it. Thereby keeping this option well balanced.

A matrix requires a ritualistic casting of the spell each day (using that spells spell slot) for a number of days equal to the spells level squared, with a minimum of two days (for first level and cantrips).
Now, as I said, once a spell matrix is hung it is considered a "spell known" under the sorc table, and used identically. On the other hand, it can also be cast free, releasing the matrix from the mind. This requires no components, and the spell is no longer available until the matrix is relain. This is an interesting and relatively expensive version of scrolls... A sorc could blow all his castings per day, then burn through his matrixes laid, but at that point the caster is completely without spells for at least a couple of days (more for higher level spells). This not only give the sorc an ability to burn out of spells in an emergency, but also allows grants the sorc the ability to change the spells hung almost at will (with the cost of a large time commitement). For those who think that this ability is very overpowered, I want to state once again that this is practically an expensive version of scrolls. Well, there's no XP cost, but it takes a lot of time, and you're limited to the number you can have, and using it potentially leaves the sorc without a key spell for days (or months).

These spell "rituals" are written down in a "spell book". The first wizard came into being when a sorc tried to teach an especially bright but charismatically challenged pupil to hang a matrix. The pupil just couldn't do it. But he did manage to hang a crippled "lesser" matrix, which absolutely needs the components, and can't have energy channeled into it. This lesser matrix doesn't take as long to lay down, but can only be "cast" once before collapsing (same as memorizing spells).



I plan on writing this out sometime, but then I'm planned on that for a while now. ~_^
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top