What LA would you give these guys?

Okay, these 2 are from a prior thread, & I think that I've got them worked out. I need a 2nd opinion or a bazillion on balance & ability of these races; I intend to use them in a campaign I'll be starting this weekend. I can only guess as to an appropriate LA for them, but feedback will prove to be very useful.

Ghoul, Nehwon
Ghoul Racial Traits

• -4 Charisma. The ghouls' appearance and fierce demeanor often alienates them from others.
• Ghouls are Medium-size. As Medium-size creatures, ghouls have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
• A ghoul's base speed is 30 feet.
• -2 to all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information skill checks. It is very difficult for ghouls to socialize with other races.
• +2 to Move Silently checks and +4 to Hide checks. Ghouls often practice ambush and stealth tactics.
• +4 to Intimidate checks. Their natural appearance and fierce demeanor is naturally intimidating to other races.
• -4 to all assisting characters' Heal checks. The ghouls' invisible flesh makes it harder for others to tend to their wounds.
• The invisible nature of a ghoul's flesh provides a +4 circumstance bonus to Armor Class. When a ghoul gains concealment, add 10% to the miss chance for any attacks against the ghoul. However, the ghoul cannot wear any armor or clothing (other than a few belts for gear) in order to benefit from this bonus.
• Because of the natural benefits the ghouls gain from their invisible flesh, ghouls can never use any sort of armor, even if their class provides them with proficiency in any type of armor. It is simply a taboo among their culture that none will break. However, ghouls may gain proficiency in and use shields normally.
• +4 racial bonus on all saves versus poison and disease. Ghouls have a naturally hardy nature and often have an unusual diet.
• +2 racial bonus on all saves versus mind-affecting spells and forms of magic. The very mundane and concrete way of thinking found in the ghoul culture instills a degree of mental hardiness.
• Low-light vision: All ghouls have exceptional vision that allows them to see twice as far as normal humans when using torchlight, starlight, or other such dim sources of illumination.
• Automatic Languages: Lankhmarese (Common), Ghoulish. Bonus Languages: Mingol, Iltharish, Desert Talk, Eevanarensee, and the Eastern Tongue.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass ghoul?s warrior class does not count when determining whether he/she suffers an XP penalty.

What LA would you assign the ghouls? LA +0? LA +1? In addition, what would it take for the ghouls to be a LA +) race, if they aren't already?


Invisibles of Stardock
Invisible of Stardock Racial Traits

• Invisibles are Medium-size. As Medium-size creatures, invisibles have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
• An Invisible's base speed is 30 feet.
• Cold Endurance: Since Invisibles dwell at the top of the frozen summit of Stardock, they gain a +4 racial bonus of Fortitude saves made to resist the effects of cold weather or exposure.
• Natural Invisibility (Ex): Invisibles of Stardock possess natural invisibility, which makes them tougher to fight against. The ability cannot is constant, and it cannot be removed, either willingly or unwillingly, nor does the effect disappear when the Invisible attacks an opponent. However, any object held or carried by the Invisible does not benefit from the invisibility effect.
  When unarmed, carrying, or wearing any visible object, the Invisible benefits from total concealment (p. 152 of the PHB). When armed, carrying, or wearing a visible object, the Invisible only gains the benefits of concealment (p. 152 of the PHB). In either case, the Invisible gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls against any visible opponent. If the Invisible is fighting an invisible opponent (such as a person benefiting from an invisibility spell, or against another Invisible), they lose this bonus.
• +2 to Move Silently checks and +4 to Hide checks. Invisibles often use their natural invisibility to the best advantage, and practice ambush and stealth tactics.
• -8 to all assisting characters' Heal checks. The nature of the Invisibles' bodies makes it very difficult for others to tend to their wounds.
• Because of the natural benefits the Invisibles gain from their invisibility, Invisibles can never use any sort of armor, even if their class provides them with proficiency in any type of armor. It is simply a taboo among their culture that none will break. However, Invisibles may gain proficiency in and use shields normally.
• Low-light vision: All Invisibles have exceptional vision that allows them to see twice as far as normal humans when using torchlight, starlight, or other such dim sources of illumination.
• Automatic Languages: Lankhmarese (Common). Bonus Languages: Mingol, Iltharish, Desert Talk, Eevanarensee, and the Eastern Tongue.
  Favored Class: Sorcerer. A multiclass Invisible's spellcaster class does not count when determining whether he/she suffers an XP penalty.

And what LA for the Invisibles? LA +0? +1?


I'd appreciate any feedback that you could provide.

The Ghoul seems to me to be LA 0.

The Invisible is very hard to tell, because at low levels the natural invisibility is fantastic, but later it becomes less useful. Furthermore, Invisible spellcasters (or Monks, or whoever else can get along without weapons) are always going to be 100% invisibles, while the classes which rely on the use of weapons aren't, unless they find invisible weapons...
Given the official trend of assigning LA based on the characters which exploits all the race benefits and minimise the impact of the penalties, I think they would be given at least LA +2.

can the invisible supress this ability to become visible?

Bryin said:

can the invisible supress this ability to become visible?

Click to expand...

Nope, neither of them can (it's an extraordinary ability). Well, at least magically. The only way they can really become visible is, well, in a classic Invisible Man sort of way: wearing clothing & using face/body paint.

Okay, another question for both of the above races, but regarding an optional rule:

WHat if both races were mainly used/allowed in a campaign which used the Defense Bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana (i.e., gain a bonus to AC while not wearing armor at all; however, the Defense Bonus is lost when a character actually wears armor [but not when using a shield])?

AFGNCAAP said:

Okay, another question for both of the above races, but regarding an optional rule:

WHat if both races were mainly used/allowed in a campaign which used the Defense Bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana (i.e., gain a bonus to AC while not wearing armor at all; however, the Defense Bonus is lost when a character actually wears armor [but not when using a shield])?

Click to expand...

It depends if you let the AC bonus of these races stack with the Defense bonus.

IIRC, the Defense bonus is not really lost when wearing armor but it instead "overlaps", however the point is that if you use DB everyone has to choose between (1) wearing armor with higher bonus than your DB (or with special abilities) or (2) stay mobile but use your lower bonus from DB.

Without using DB, the ghoul has the race AC bonus but is not able to wear armor, which could be quite on par with the armored characters. If you use DB, he is better if you let them stack.

I like the writeup for the Nehwon Ghoul, one of my favorite ideas from that world.

I agree that they are currently a LA +0

If I may make a few suggestions though:

I would drop the Chr penalty to -2 and keep the social skill penalties as they are. Ghouls seemed pretty self possessed to me. Or just make it -4 Chr as that alone gives them a -2 the all Chr based skills and checks, having both does not seem needed to me.

Reduced the heal check penalty to -2, and only for non-ghouls, the treating person may not be able to see the edge of the wounds but they can easily see anything stuck in the flesh and where it is in relation to vital organs.

Because they never gain armor prof, at 1st level (and 1st level only) if they start in a class with two or more armor prof should they get a bonus feat instead? Maybe limited to defensive ones (dodge, great fortitude, iron will, lightning reflexes, toughness) only?