Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
11/1/13 google hangout with
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Gorgoroth" data-source="post: 6072616" data-attributes="member: 6674889"><p>You're right that with a simple change to swap a xd6 with, say, xd12 or 2xd6 (in case of a dwarf with a greataxe), it's a no-brainer to pick the biggest/baddest weapon you can find. However, that said, there is no reason why they can't also bake in disincentives to trade off that d12 of extra damage for a maneuver that, while powerful and useful, consumes that die without its magnitude contributing to the effect. What I'm saying is, there is a design space for a short-sword and shield using fighter with certain killer maneuvers using them BECAUSE he's not trading off so much damage to trigger his maneuvers. </p><p></p><p>Then it remains to balance status effects with "dead" a bit better, but e.g. this tradeoff already exists with, say, Parry, where currently you would trade off d12 + d6 damage with Deadly Strike for d6 DR. And obviously Parry could not simply use the straight up weapon die since d12 is too much DR to give PCs. But in the maneuver system, as it already stands, we already have your offensive output traded in for maneuvers, it just remains to balance a bit (ok, a lot), better the benefits of a maneuver-focused fighter who may chose a different weapon other than the most damaging one, if it has reach or trip or disarm as properties baked in.</p><p></p><p>The big issue is whether a d8 + shield + parry/other maneuvers can be balanced vs d12s of pure damage. I think it can, and it's worth the effort to try. Don't forget, there is such a thing as overkill too, and not all maneuvers should use the straight up weapon die to fuel their effects. They already do not. Consuming a d12 is a lot more costly in terms of opportunity cost vs a d6 or d8 weapon to trigger a maneuver, it's just a question of making maneuvers good enough (at least in certain circumstances), that it's worthwhile to do that. Don't forget, a guard might focus more on knocking you out, so damage is not a priority, or a slaver might not want to damage his potential profits by injuring you too much, so instead focused on trying to disarm + catch you with his man-catcher or net. There are plenty of reasons to not focus on the greataxe or greatsword all the time, especially if AC + maneuver benefits of a shield get better. For example, the parry benefit of a weapon might be always d6 per MDD, but different shields might give different die, independent of the weapon die. I don't think that's too complicated, since it already sort of works that way, but in reverse (it's always d6 now and your weapon hardly matter, which <u>sucks</u>)</p><p></p><p>The way to balance the sword + board guy with the big sword guy is not by making the damage the same, it's by the combined contributions of AC, Parry, survivability, etc. </p><p></p><p>Someone already posted on here math that battle axe + shield is more optimal than greataxe in facing hordes of skeletons at level 1. Maybe making MDDs == the weapon die pushes it too far in the greataxe's favour, but there are other ways to tame that. Balance != does the same effect. It means having the same amount of fun. </p><p></p><p>If you want to do the most damage, use the biggest sword. Case closed. If you want to last longer against multiple enemies, use a shield. This is basic stuff IMO. The maneuver system + MDDs shouldn't exist just to turn your weapon choice into mere fluff.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gorgoroth, post: 6072616, member: 6674889"] You're right that with a simple change to swap a xd6 with, say, xd12 or 2xd6 (in case of a dwarf with a greataxe), it's a no-brainer to pick the biggest/baddest weapon you can find. However, that said, there is no reason why they can't also bake in disincentives to trade off that d12 of extra damage for a maneuver that, while powerful and useful, consumes that die without its magnitude contributing to the effect. What I'm saying is, there is a design space for a short-sword and shield using fighter with certain killer maneuvers using them BECAUSE he's not trading off so much damage to trigger his maneuvers. Then it remains to balance status effects with "dead" a bit better, but e.g. this tradeoff already exists with, say, Parry, where currently you would trade off d12 + d6 damage with Deadly Strike for d6 DR. And obviously Parry could not simply use the straight up weapon die since d12 is too much DR to give PCs. But in the maneuver system, as it already stands, we already have your offensive output traded in for maneuvers, it just remains to balance a bit (ok, a lot), better the benefits of a maneuver-focused fighter who may chose a different weapon other than the most damaging one, if it has reach or trip or disarm as properties baked in. The big issue is whether a d8 + shield + parry/other maneuvers can be balanced vs d12s of pure damage. I think it can, and it's worth the effort to try. Don't forget, there is such a thing as overkill too, and not all maneuvers should use the straight up weapon die to fuel their effects. They already do not. Consuming a d12 is a lot more costly in terms of opportunity cost vs a d6 or d8 weapon to trigger a maneuver, it's just a question of making maneuvers good enough (at least in certain circumstances), that it's worthwhile to do that. Don't forget, a guard might focus more on knocking you out, so damage is not a priority, or a slaver might not want to damage his potential profits by injuring you too much, so instead focused on trying to disarm + catch you with his man-catcher or net. There are plenty of reasons to not focus on the greataxe or greatsword all the time, especially if AC + maneuver benefits of a shield get better. For example, the parry benefit of a weapon might be always d6 per MDD, but different shields might give different die, independent of the weapon die. I don't think that's too complicated, since it already sort of works that way, but in reverse (it's always d6 now and your weapon hardly matter, which [U]sucks[/U]) The way to balance the sword + board guy with the big sword guy is not by making the damage the same, it's by the combined contributions of AC, Parry, survivability, etc. Someone already posted on here math that battle axe + shield is more optimal than greataxe in facing hordes of skeletons at level 1. Maybe making MDDs == the weapon die pushes it too far in the greataxe's favour, but there are other ways to tame that. Balance != does the same effect. It means having the same amount of fun. If you want to do the most damage, use the biggest sword. Case closed. If you want to last longer against multiple enemies, use a shield. This is basic stuff IMO. The maneuver system + MDDs shouldn't exist just to turn your weapon choice into mere fluff. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
11/1/13 google hangout with
Top