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<blockquote data-quote="Coredump" data-source="post: 2694777" data-attributes="member: 6939"><p>I know YOU don't, but apparently Karin's Dad does, and I can understand that version.</p><p></p><p>If the rule is really only applicable in those two specific examples, why bother writing "even if", it makes no sense. Using those seems to indicate that of the myriad of times that the rogue does not lose her Dex bonus, those two are the most 'outrageous', so they are called out.</p><p></p><p>It does not rule out exceptions, but it also does *not* mean "I will give you twenty dollars *only* if you punch me in the face." Which is what you and I2K are arguing.</p><p></p><p>I need some money, you say "I will give you $20." That does not have any conditions on it. Conditions and exceptions *may* exist, you do not rule them out, but they are not known to exist. So the default is that no matter what, you will give me $20. </p><p></p><p>Now, since I have a habit of punching you in the face, you state "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" The default is still in place, you are giving me $20, but you have clarified one of the 'edge cases' that may have been an exception to your statement. So, you will give me $20, and it doesn't matter if I punch you in the face or not. But it still does not rule out other possible conditions or exceptions, they *may* exist, but the default is that you will give me $20. </p><p></p><p>Since I also have a habit of kicking you in the nuts...you say "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face. However, if you will not get the $20 if you kick me in the nuts" </p><p></p><p>Now if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is the *same* as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", which is what is being asserted, they why even need the "however", since that is clearly not one of the two things listed.</p><p></p><p>And if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is *not* the same as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", </p><p></p><p>Then why do you say "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker." is the same as "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) only when she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Coredump, post: 2694777, member: 6939"] I know YOU don't, but apparently Karin's Dad does, and I can understand that version. If the rule is really only applicable in those two specific examples, why bother writing "even if", it makes no sense. Using those seems to indicate that of the myriad of times that the rogue does not lose her Dex bonus, those two are the most 'outrageous', so they are called out. It does not rule out exceptions, but it also does *not* mean "I will give you twenty dollars *only* if you punch me in the face." Which is what you and I2K are arguing. I need some money, you say "I will give you $20." That does not have any conditions on it. Conditions and exceptions *may* exist, you do not rule them out, but they are not known to exist. So the default is that no matter what, you will give me $20. Now, since I have a habit of punching you in the face, you state "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" The default is still in place, you are giving me $20, but you have clarified one of the 'edge cases' that may have been an exception to your statement. So, you will give me $20, and it doesn't matter if I punch you in the face or not. But it still does not rule out other possible conditions or exceptions, they *may* exist, but the default is that you will give me $20. Since I also have a habit of kicking you in the nuts...you say "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face. However, if you will not get the $20 if you kick me in the nuts" Now if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is the *same* as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", which is what is being asserted, they why even need the "however", since that is clearly not one of the two things listed. And if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is *not* the same as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", Then why do you say "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker." is the same as "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) only when she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.? [/QUOTE]
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