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[3.5] DM questions regarding the art of magic war
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<blockquote data-quote="Persiflage" data-source="post: 5379113" data-attributes="member: 73597"><p><strong>On boulders, spells, and why this isn't nearly as good as it looks...</strong></p><p></p><p>Some simple facts for you, which might help clear up some misconceptions:</p><p></p><p>1) Rocks are very heavy things indeed</p><p>2) An 8th-level Wizard can Levitate up to 800lbs, or 362.87kg.</p><p>3) The density of granite - your traditional boulder material - is 2.7g/cm^3</p><p>4) This means that the maximum boulder <em>volume</em> the Wizard can Levitate is 134396.3 cm^3, or 0.134396 m^3 (4.75 cu.ft)</p><p>5) The radius of such a boulder is 0.317m, or 31.7cm</p><p>6) Therefore, the maximum size of granite boulder an 8th-level Wizard can move with a Levitate spell is a sphere 63.4cm across... or to put it another way, about <strong>2ft in diameter</strong>. </p><p></p><p>What was all that about <strong>large boulders</strong> again? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Now imagine trying to drop such a thing accurately from 200ft up, taking into account wind-shear, the fact that most targets won't be perfectly stationary, the fact that most natural lumps of rock aren't perfectly spherical and will thus tumble in an unpredictable fashion in the air... "Getting hit" by a rock of that size would of course be instantly fatal to pretty much anything in the real world <em>depending on where it hit</em>. </p><p></p><p>If it caught a human being a glancing blow, it could inflict any injury from a broken fingernail to shattered bones, but with objects the size we're talking about - with such unpredictable properties and so hard to aim from 200 ft away - the slightest movement by the target could reduce the effect from insta-kill to "nothing whatsoever".</p><p></p><p>I hear you say "Aha! But we've upgraded the scenario, and the Wizard is now using <em>shrink item</em>". That's true enough. An 8th-level Wizard can shrink an object of up to 16cu.ft in volume... which is a sphere of 3.13ft in diameter. That's better, but hardly Indiana-Jones-dodging-giant-balls-of-rock territory. </p><p></p><p>For the record, a 20th-level Wizard could shrink a boulder of approximately 1.29m (4.24ft) in diameter, which would weigh 3058.219kg (6742lb) before shrinking. That's even closer to the "boulder" people were originally talking about, but it's still easy to conceive of a Medium-sized creature avoiding an object of that size that landed in their square. </p><p></p><p>Alright, the rock could be (and most probably is) more flat than it is spherical, and would therefore cover a greater area... but who's to say it doesn't land edge-on over such a fall? Air resistance alone would likely cause an irregular solid to tumble over a 100ft+ drop.</p><p></p><p>To my mind, this means a to-hit roll (to get the thing on target) <em>and</em> a saving throw (because there's such a long gap between the rock being released and it hitting the ground, although see below).</p><p></p><p>Basically, in order to drop anything <strong>really</strong> big on someone's head, you'd have to use <em>greater levitate</em>, because the volume limits on <em>shrink item</em> just aren't enough to allow you to tote a genuinely massive rock at pre-epic levels. <em>Greater levitate</em> is a 5th-level spell so our 8th-level Wizard can't cast it, but when he first gets the spell he'll be hefting 9,000lb. Now we're talking: that's a granite sphere 4.67ft across, which is already larger than a 20th-level Wizard can shrink.</p><p></p><p><em>Greater levitate</em> is not a core spell though (I believe it's from a WoTC web enhancement) so you can disallow it with impunity, even assuming the player knows of it.</p><p></p><p>Whether player or DM, numbers can be your friend <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>All that said, an 800lb rock would "only" have to be dropped from a height of 170ft for maximum oomph, as you'll see from the <a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Falling#Falling_Objects" target="_blank">falling objects damage table</a>. To get maximum damage, you add 4d6 base (1d6 per 200lbs of weight, dropped from a height of 10ft) plus an additional 1d6 per <em>extra</em> 10ft fallen.</p><p></p><p>Finally, exactly <em>how</em> difficult is it to drop this rock on someone's head? It's this difficult:</p><p></p><p>1) He's using a ranged weapon from a long way away. A thrown rock has a base range increment of... well, there's no real default because range increments for hurled boulders are normally specified by race (different giant subtypes, for instance) or other corner-case effects (such as the <em>giant's wrath</em> spell). As such, you could quite reasonably call it, say, a 20ft-range increment. As it's dropping straight down there's no maximum range increment, but at 170ft he's on a -16 penalty to hit. If you're feeling generous, double the range increment to 40ft so his distance penalty is only -8.</p><p></p><p>Don't let him talk you into a longer range increment: he's not a giant (they get ridiculous range increments), and isn't casting a spell that'd give him the rock throwing ability by other means.</p><p></p><p>2) He's using a ranged weapon with which he is not proficient, which means he should be suffering a -4 penalty to his attack roll on top of the distance penalty.</p><p></p><p>3) He's using an inapproriately-<em>sized</em> weapon: a sphere of 3 times the diameter of a regulation bowling ball. That's another -2 penalty at least.</p><p></p><p>4) <strong><em>Levitate does not</em></strong> <em><strong>render something weightless, and more importantly, not massless</strong></em>: all it does is lift it from the ground. It still has as much mass as ever, and the wizard is no stronger than usual. He is trying to push it along using a <em>fly</em> spell. "The subject of a fly spell [...] cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears." He may not be "carrying" it as such, but the fact remains that he's still trying to push an 800lb object around. It still weighs 800lbs even if it's lifted off the floor by magic... what's his Strength score? Wouldn't he just succeed in pushing himself away from it?</p><p></p><p>Consider a large boat moored in perfectly calm weather: you *can* push it by hand, but if you were on a frictionless surface (say, an icy dock) you'd be pushed away from the boat at a rate many orders of magnitude faster than it would accelerate from you, due to your respective masses. If you want another comparison, consider a space-walking astronaut trying to push an 800lb rock... what do you suppose would happen then?</p><p></p><p>5) OK, so you don't want to ban it on that basis. Use the rules on pushing or dragging up to 5 times your maximum load, meaning he could pull it off at 14 Str. Under these rules, he can only move that rock at 5ft per round.</p><p></p><p>6) If you continue to allow him to move the thing at all, remember that he's not "throwing" the rock, he's actually trying to shove its 800lb bulk around painstakingly into an advantageous position before cancelling the <em>levitate</em> spell. It is not unreasonable to further impose a circumstance penalty on his attack rolls: -4 sounds about right. </p><p></p><p>The use of <em>shrink item</em> would paradoxically make it even harder: at what point during the throwing (or dropping) process does he cancel the spell? Minute mistakes in trajectory could be catatrophically magnified depending on conditions; and it's not like he's strong enough to give the thing any guidance once the spell has been dismissed. Think about how hard it is to get a 12lb bowling ball exactly where you want it... and that's from only 60ft away, in perfect conditions, with a perfectly regular object that doesn't suddenly change size when you've got it lined up!</p><p></p><p>Real-world comparisons aside (they're only to help you picture what's going on, not to interpret rules) you could and should impose range penalties, non-proficiency penalties and circumstance modifiers to his attack roll. Even then, he's doing a maximum of 20d6 damage to a single target with this trick... and it's a trick that could be stymied by a 1st-level caster with <em>featherfall, </em>if said caster won initiative (or readied an action in subsequent rounds).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Persiflage, post: 5379113, member: 73597"] [b]On boulders, spells, and why this isn't nearly as good as it looks...[/b] Some simple facts for you, which might help clear up some misconceptions: 1) Rocks are very heavy things indeed 2) An 8th-level Wizard can Levitate up to 800lbs, or 362.87kg. 3) The density of granite - your traditional boulder material - is 2.7g/cm^3 4) This means that the maximum boulder [I]volume[/I] the Wizard can Levitate is 134396.3 cm^3, or 0.134396 m^3 (4.75 cu.ft) 5) The radius of such a boulder is 0.317m, or 31.7cm 6) Therefore, the maximum size of granite boulder an 8th-level Wizard can move with a Levitate spell is a sphere 63.4cm across... or to put it another way, about [B]2ft in diameter[/B]. What was all that about [B]large boulders[/B] again? ;) Now imagine trying to drop such a thing accurately from 200ft up, taking into account wind-shear, the fact that most targets won't be perfectly stationary, the fact that most natural lumps of rock aren't perfectly spherical and will thus tumble in an unpredictable fashion in the air... "Getting hit" by a rock of that size would of course be instantly fatal to pretty much anything in the real world [I]depending on where it hit[/I]. If it caught a human being a glancing blow, it could inflict any injury from a broken fingernail to shattered bones, but with objects the size we're talking about - with such unpredictable properties and so hard to aim from 200 ft away - the slightest movement by the target could reduce the effect from insta-kill to "nothing whatsoever". I hear you say "Aha! But we've upgraded the scenario, and the Wizard is now using [I]shrink item[/I]". That's true enough. An 8th-level Wizard can shrink an object of up to 16cu.ft in volume... which is a sphere of 3.13ft in diameter. That's better, but hardly Indiana-Jones-dodging-giant-balls-of-rock territory. For the record, a 20th-level Wizard could shrink a boulder of approximately 1.29m (4.24ft) in diameter, which would weigh 3058.219kg (6742lb) before shrinking. That's even closer to the "boulder" people were originally talking about, but it's still easy to conceive of a Medium-sized creature avoiding an object of that size that landed in their square. Alright, the rock could be (and most probably is) more flat than it is spherical, and would therefore cover a greater area... but who's to say it doesn't land edge-on over such a fall? Air resistance alone would likely cause an irregular solid to tumble over a 100ft+ drop. To my mind, this means a to-hit roll (to get the thing on target) [I]and[/I] a saving throw (because there's such a long gap between the rock being released and it hitting the ground, although see below). Basically, in order to drop anything [B]really[/B] big on someone's head, you'd have to use [I]greater levitate[/I], because the volume limits on [I]shrink item[/I] just aren't enough to allow you to tote a genuinely massive rock at pre-epic levels. [I]Greater levitate[/I] is a 5th-level spell so our 8th-level Wizard can't cast it, but when he first gets the spell he'll be hefting 9,000lb. Now we're talking: that's a granite sphere 4.67ft across, which is already larger than a 20th-level Wizard can shrink. [I]Greater levitate[/I] is not a core spell though (I believe it's from a WoTC web enhancement) so you can disallow it with impunity, even assuming the player knows of it. Whether player or DM, numbers can be your friend :) All that said, an 800lb rock would "only" have to be dropped from a height of 170ft for maximum oomph, as you'll see from the [URL="http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Falling#Falling_Objects"]falling objects damage table[/URL]. To get maximum damage, you add 4d6 base (1d6 per 200lbs of weight, dropped from a height of 10ft) plus an additional 1d6 per [I]extra[/I] 10ft fallen. Finally, exactly [I]how[/I] difficult is it to drop this rock on someone's head? It's this difficult: 1) He's using a ranged weapon from a long way away. A thrown rock has a base range increment of... well, there's no real default because range increments for hurled boulders are normally specified by race (different giant subtypes, for instance) or other corner-case effects (such as the [I]giant's wrath[/I] spell). As such, you could quite reasonably call it, say, a 20ft-range increment. As it's dropping straight down there's no maximum range increment, but at 170ft he's on a -16 penalty to hit. If you're feeling generous, double the range increment to 40ft so his distance penalty is only -8. Don't let him talk you into a longer range increment: he's not a giant (they get ridiculous range increments), and isn't casting a spell that'd give him the rock throwing ability by other means. 2) He's using a ranged weapon with which he is not proficient, which means he should be suffering a -4 penalty to his attack roll on top of the distance penalty. 3) He's using an inapproriately-[I]sized[/I] weapon: a sphere of 3 times the diameter of a regulation bowling ball. That's another -2 penalty at least. 4) [B][I]Levitate does not[/I][/B] [I][B]render something weightless, and more importantly, not massless[/B][/I]: all it does is lift it from the ground. It still has as much mass as ever, and the wizard is no stronger than usual. He is trying to push it along using a [I]fly[/I] spell. "The subject of a fly spell [...] cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears." He may not be "carrying" it as such, but the fact remains that he's still trying to push an 800lb object around. It still weighs 800lbs even if it's lifted off the floor by magic... what's his Strength score? Wouldn't he just succeed in pushing himself away from it? Consider a large boat moored in perfectly calm weather: you *can* push it by hand, but if you were on a frictionless surface (say, an icy dock) you'd be pushed away from the boat at a rate many orders of magnitude faster than it would accelerate from you, due to your respective masses. If you want another comparison, consider a space-walking astronaut trying to push an 800lb rock... what do you suppose would happen then? 5) OK, so you don't want to ban it on that basis. Use the rules on pushing or dragging up to 5 times your maximum load, meaning he could pull it off at 14 Str. Under these rules, he can only move that rock at 5ft per round. 6) If you continue to allow him to move the thing at all, remember that he's not "throwing" the rock, he's actually trying to shove its 800lb bulk around painstakingly into an advantageous position before cancelling the [I]levitate[/I] spell. It is not unreasonable to further impose a circumstance penalty on his attack rolls: -4 sounds about right. The use of [I]shrink item[/I] would paradoxically make it even harder: at what point during the throwing (or dropping) process does he cancel the spell? Minute mistakes in trajectory could be catatrophically magnified depending on conditions; and it's not like he's strong enough to give the thing any guidance once the spell has been dismissed. Think about how hard it is to get a 12lb bowling ball exactly where you want it... and that's from only 60ft away, in perfect conditions, with a perfectly regular object that doesn't suddenly change size when you've got it lined up! Real-world comparisons aside (they're only to help you picture what's going on, not to interpret rules) you could and should impose range penalties, non-proficiency penalties and circumstance modifiers to his attack roll. Even then, he's doing a maximum of 20d6 damage to a single target with this trick... and it's a trick that could be stymied by a 1st-level caster with [I]featherfall, [/I]if said caster won initiative (or readied an action in subsequent rounds). [/QUOTE]
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