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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
3.5 Druids - what to do about them?
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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 2422308" data-attributes="member: 707"><p>This is very true. In my games I enforce it with draconian efficiency. It's one of the few rules I treat thusly. Once the druid realizes he can't talk to the party while wildshaped, his desire to remain always wildshaped decreases rapidly.I'm not particularly arguing with you entirely, just responding to a few of your assertions that I've found to be untrue in my games, though of course they could very well be true in others.</p><p></p><p>For instance, this assertion that druid's can outscout the scout. This is only true if the druid has spent the skill points in Spot and Listen that a scout needs. If he has, then yes, he's a good scout. But he isn't outscouting the scout, he <em>is</em> the scout. If he doesn't spend the skill ranks, he's only going to be good at scouting out large encampments that aren't trying to hide themselves, which is only a mediocre scout at best.Again, I disagree. Whether or not its a cakewalk depends on if the party has a good scout, not wither they have a druid. Yes, the druid can be a good scout, but the rogue can be just as effective.</p><p></p><p>As a note: Some DMs assume that a flying creature, like a hawk, can automatically see everything underneath it. On the contrary, it is my opinion that in forested areas, a flying creature will actually have a serious negative circumstance bonus working <em>against</em> it (provided by the forest canopy.) Therefore scouting as a hawk is generally a bad idea.</p><p></p><p>A wolf or fox doesn't have to deal with the canopy, but <em>does</em> have to make move silently/hide checks, and deal with the fact that if spotted/heard, marauding villains are likely to take shots at it for the pelt, and enemy spellcasters will get a Spellcraft check to notice the ongoing magical effect (wildshape) if they catch sight of it.</p><p></p><p>So again, a druid can be an effective scout if he's put the appropriate ranks in scouting skills. But while wildshape has certain advantages, it also has enough disadvantages to keep it from making scouting into an automatically successful endeavor.Setting aside the fact that clerics and wizards can get "gnarly", this is even true of my paladin. One round to summon his griffon mount, another to cast <em>bull's strength</em> (shared with the mount) then a series of Spirted Charges = evil.</p><p></p><p>My point here being that it's pointless to claim the druid is overpowered because he can lay the smackdown with 2+ rounds of preparation. Any class can do that. Even the fighter can do that at mid to high levels, if he's invested in the right magic items. (<em>Ring of Spell Storing</em> with <em>Enlarge Person</em> and <em>Bull's Strength</em> stored therein, for instance.)This I agree with. You need to know how to deal with the various things the druid can do. It helps to think through various scenarios ahead of time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lord Pendragon, post: 2422308, member: 707"] This is very true. In my games I enforce it with draconian efficiency. It's one of the few rules I treat thusly. Once the druid realizes he can't talk to the party while wildshaped, his desire to remain always wildshaped decreases rapidly.I'm not particularly arguing with you entirely, just responding to a few of your assertions that I've found to be untrue in my games, though of course they could very well be true in others. For instance, this assertion that druid's can outscout the scout. This is only true if the druid has spent the skill points in Spot and Listen that a scout needs. If he has, then yes, he's a good scout. But he isn't outscouting the scout, he [i]is[/i] the scout. If he doesn't spend the skill ranks, he's only going to be good at scouting out large encampments that aren't trying to hide themselves, which is only a mediocre scout at best.Again, I disagree. Whether or not its a cakewalk depends on if the party has a good scout, not wither they have a druid. Yes, the druid can be a good scout, but the rogue can be just as effective. As a note: Some DMs assume that a flying creature, like a hawk, can automatically see everything underneath it. On the contrary, it is my opinion that in forested areas, a flying creature will actually have a serious negative circumstance bonus working [i]against[/i] it (provided by the forest canopy.) Therefore scouting as a hawk is generally a bad idea. A wolf or fox doesn't have to deal with the canopy, but [i]does[/i] have to make move silently/hide checks, and deal with the fact that if spotted/heard, marauding villains are likely to take shots at it for the pelt, and enemy spellcasters will get a Spellcraft check to notice the ongoing magical effect (wildshape) if they catch sight of it. So again, a druid can be an effective scout if he's put the appropriate ranks in scouting skills. But while wildshape has certain advantages, it also has enough disadvantages to keep it from making scouting into an automatically successful endeavor.Setting aside the fact that clerics and wizards can get "gnarly", this is even true of my paladin. One round to summon his griffon mount, another to cast [i]bull's strength[/i] (shared with the mount) then a series of Spirted Charges = evil. My point here being that it's pointless to claim the druid is overpowered because he can lay the smackdown with 2+ rounds of preparation. Any class can do that. Even the fighter can do that at mid to high levels, if he's invested in the right magic items. ([i]Ring of Spell Storing[/i] with [i]Enlarge Person[/i] and [i]Bull's Strength[/i] stored therein, for instance.)This I agree with. You need to know how to deal with the various things the druid can do. It helps to think through various scenarios ahead of time. [/QUOTE]
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