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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
3.5 vs. Pathfinder
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<blockquote data-quote="enrious" data-source="post: 5666321" data-attributes="member: 2126"><p>While I think there are problems in Pathfinder (I think all of us could come up with pages of them), just as in 3.x (I think all of us could come up with pages of them), we've found that on the whole it tends to work together - just like 3.x</p><p></p><p>Sure, we have issues of trying to remember that rule x changed, but that usually happens once, we make a note of it, and we move on with our lives. Funny thing is, that's exactly what happened when we switched from 3.0 to 3.5. We survived then too.</p><p></p><p>We have noticed some of the derided things make things move faster and smoother - the change to Power Attack for example, while numerically weaker than in 3.x results in it being used more and when it is used, it's almost an after thought. I know this may be shocking, but not everyone can instantly calculate the most perfect optimum number to subtract/add, so it tended to either not get used or the game'd come crashing to a halt when someone tried. Thus, under Pathfinder with set adjustments, it's enacted and that's that.</p><p></p><p>Cleave in Pathfinder is horrible. Great Cleave isn't that much better, to be sure. However, I can see the attraction for some players, because it isn't dependent on dropping the first foe as in 3.x, so if you have foes adjacent to each other, it can give lowbies an extra sort of attack. I wouldn't take it, but I also wouldn't say anything if someone else did.</p><p></p><p>As for a spell like Mirror Image, meh. If you're low-level, he can't cast it that often and if he's high-level, were you without area of effect weapons/spells/other such items that don't require an attack roll? The spell is what it is, in my experience removing the line about knowing it's him hasn't had all that much of an effect, but obviously your experience differed. I've read enough of your posts, Stream, to consider you a knowledgeable and experienced 3.x + Pathfinder guy, so please consider this curiosity/a request for more details as I'm trying to figure out why you had one experience and I had another and not as an attack or a "you're doing it wrong" sort of thing.</p><p></p><p>And grapple...yeah, let me put grapple this way. I think, based on my experience in judo, that the 3.x rules were actually some of the most realistic grappling rules I've seen in a rpg - and they were very out of character with the rest of the abstract combat rules. Pathfinder has made it better in some ways and worse in others. I'd almost rather at this point if the rules just a had a bullet list of actions you could do and cut out the verbage because I guarantee you that in Pathfinder, just as in 3.x, we lose grappling knowledge whenever we read the rules. </p><p></p><p>There are some things in Pathfinder I prefer over 3.5, such as the way negative energy levels work or the paladin's lay on hands ability. I do prefer some of the 3.5 class abilities that work per day, as mentioned above, but overall I'm satisfied with Pathfinder (although I'd also recommend anyone interested in Pathfinder to take a read of Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games), but with most criticisms that are disingenuous or outdated (like FrankTrollman saying you can't use 3.x monsters as-is in Pathfinder - yes, he's literally true...but calculate the CMB, CMD, and subtract 1 from the CR and you're done. That takes what, 10seconds at most?) it makes me wonder at an agenda, because there's often two sides to the criticism. </p><p></p><p>Take, for example, Frank merely saying that Power Attack was nerfed (true) - he doesn't tell you an effect of it (which I outlined above). This isn't to say that he's factually incorrect, just that he's only giving you one bit of data, for whatever reason.</p><p></p><p>Ultimately it comes down to this, for me. I played a lot of 3.0 and made the 3.5 switch pretty much when it came out and no, my 3.0 books were not invalidated. I played a lot of 3.5, ranging from Ptolus to Midnight to Forgotten Realms to Ravenloft and all points in between. We're now playing Pathfinder not because it's the OMG GREATEST EVAH! but because it tweaked a lot of the things we didn't like about 3.x and it's easier for us to untweak the changes they made that we don't like or don't agree with. The fact that it's in-print and not outrageously priced for new players is also a plus, but it being a vast improvement over 3.x is not a plus - but from my perspective it's also not a OMG WORST GAME EVAH either because it's not a big step back either...all told it's probably about even to 3.5</p><p></p><p>Which makes the fanboys of both games equally ludicrous. Again, in my opinion. I guarantee you for every plus presented for one, someone can present a negative for it and vice versa.</p><p></p><p>tl;dr version - 3.x is good, Pathfinder is good, both are different from each other in various ways and to various degrees. Be excellent to each other.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="enrious, post: 5666321, member: 2126"] While I think there are problems in Pathfinder (I think all of us could come up with pages of them), just as in 3.x (I think all of us could come up with pages of them), we've found that on the whole it tends to work together - just like 3.x Sure, we have issues of trying to remember that rule x changed, but that usually happens once, we make a note of it, and we move on with our lives. Funny thing is, that's exactly what happened when we switched from 3.0 to 3.5. We survived then too. We have noticed some of the derided things make things move faster and smoother - the change to Power Attack for example, while numerically weaker than in 3.x results in it being used more and when it is used, it's almost an after thought. I know this may be shocking, but not everyone can instantly calculate the most perfect optimum number to subtract/add, so it tended to either not get used or the game'd come crashing to a halt when someone tried. Thus, under Pathfinder with set adjustments, it's enacted and that's that. Cleave in Pathfinder is horrible. Great Cleave isn't that much better, to be sure. However, I can see the attraction for some players, because it isn't dependent on dropping the first foe as in 3.x, so if you have foes adjacent to each other, it can give lowbies an extra sort of attack. I wouldn't take it, but I also wouldn't say anything if someone else did. As for a spell like Mirror Image, meh. If you're low-level, he can't cast it that often and if he's high-level, were you without area of effect weapons/spells/other such items that don't require an attack roll? The spell is what it is, in my experience removing the line about knowing it's him hasn't had all that much of an effect, but obviously your experience differed. I've read enough of your posts, Stream, to consider you a knowledgeable and experienced 3.x + Pathfinder guy, so please consider this curiosity/a request for more details as I'm trying to figure out why you had one experience and I had another and not as an attack or a "you're doing it wrong" sort of thing. And grapple...yeah, let me put grapple this way. I think, based on my experience in judo, that the 3.x rules were actually some of the most realistic grappling rules I've seen in a rpg - and they were very out of character with the rest of the abstract combat rules. Pathfinder has made it better in some ways and worse in others. I'd almost rather at this point if the rules just a had a bullet list of actions you could do and cut out the verbage because I guarantee you that in Pathfinder, just as in 3.x, we lose grappling knowledge whenever we read the rules. There are some things in Pathfinder I prefer over 3.5, such as the way negative energy levels work or the paladin's lay on hands ability. I do prefer some of the 3.5 class abilities that work per day, as mentioned above, but overall I'm satisfied with Pathfinder (although I'd also recommend anyone interested in Pathfinder to take a read of Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games), but with most criticisms that are disingenuous or outdated (like FrankTrollman saying you can't use 3.x monsters as-is in Pathfinder - yes, he's literally true...but calculate the CMB, CMD, and subtract 1 from the CR and you're done. That takes what, 10seconds at most?) it makes me wonder at an agenda, because there's often two sides to the criticism. Take, for example, Frank merely saying that Power Attack was nerfed (true) - he doesn't tell you an effect of it (which I outlined above). This isn't to say that he's factually incorrect, just that he's only giving you one bit of data, for whatever reason. Ultimately it comes down to this, for me. I played a lot of 3.0 and made the 3.5 switch pretty much when it came out and no, my 3.0 books were not invalidated. I played a lot of 3.5, ranging from Ptolus to Midnight to Forgotten Realms to Ravenloft and all points in between. We're now playing Pathfinder not because it's the OMG GREATEST EVAH! but because it tweaked a lot of the things we didn't like about 3.x and it's easier for us to untweak the changes they made that we don't like or don't agree with. The fact that it's in-print and not outrageously priced for new players is also a plus, but it being a vast improvement over 3.x is not a plus - but from my perspective it's also not a OMG WORST GAME EVAH either because it's not a big step back either...all told it's probably about even to 3.5 Which makes the fanboys of both games equally ludicrous. Again, in my opinion. I guarantee you for every plus presented for one, someone can present a negative for it and vice versa. tl;dr version - 3.x is good, Pathfinder is good, both are different from each other in various ways and to various degrees. Be excellent to each other. [/QUOTE]
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