Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
4 Hours w/ RSD - Escapist Bonus Column
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7647825" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Ehhhhh, I don't think that would work. I'm no game industry expert, but I do know a good bit about open source software. You can certainly license code to other people, its a common business model, but I think Ryan is right to a certain extent, in the gaming world it isn't rules that are all that important, it is more the shared play style and the whole 'culture' of the game. There's just no big reason why (and probably very little money in) licensing out game engines. I can write one pretty easily and certainly the people that do it for a living can knock out core rules in their sleep. A non-free OGL wouldn't be fundamentally an 'O'GL, it would be a license to be dependent on WotC.</p><p></p><p>In fact the GSL is pretty much exactly what you're suggesting. There is SOME GSL content out there, but not much, and notice it is still FREE, just not OPEN. Open licensing works precisely because you DO surrender control. OGL was a success, and is still a success in and of itself. WotC just picked up its marbles and left the table, so now they're dealt out.</p><p></p><p>Personally I really LIKE 4e a lot, but the problem it has is cultural, in several ways. First it clearly threatened people's notion of their game. Just by existing as a different game from what they professed loyalty to before it questions that loyalty. Then WotC had the questionable (IE BAD) judgment to pretty much state that 4e was better and 3e was not cool, which just made the threat into a direct attack. That was bad. </p><p></p><p>Then WotC overpromised and underdelivered on DDI. DDI is great, but they promised some pie-in-the-sky vision of it instead of what they could deliver. That never makes a good impression. </p><p></p><p>There was an even more insidious and in the end perhaps even worse mistake they made. They created Paizo. How much of the staff of Paizo used to work for WotC? How many of their freelancers are ex-WotC employees? Most hideous of all was a master mistake they made years ago. They gave Paizo Dragon and Dungeon AND THEY LET THE CUSTOMERS KNOW. Its one thing to use a service bureau to publish and distribute your publication, but they let Paizo interface with the customers. How do you think Paizo became a game company and had name recognition that they could leverage to put out Pathfinder? WotC made them a name that people knew, and then 'licensed' them a game system that validated a whole disaffected bunch of customers preferences, and handily made available all kinds of talent that could develop for it. </p><p></p><p>I don't mean to imply that the people at Paizo didn't do all the right things and haven't busted their tails to make it work. Of course they have, and they've done a wonderful job of interfacing with the customers and the rest of the gaming business community. Still, they were handed a fully cooked meal on a silver platter that only needed to be served. </p><p></p><p>Plainly speaking if guys like Ryan were running the D&D division at WotC, where do you think D&D would be? Who knows, but somehow the people that make the decisions there are disconnected from what needed to be done and made basic business mistakes, some of them long before 4e, and they're paying the price now. </p><p></p><p>4e itself, in some form, perhaps with different presentation, was basically a logical move, and they made a fine game. They just haven't understood how to please a good chunk of the community and make dumb mistakes. Even so, WotC can survive and if they have the will they can probably just live through it. If they can learn from it then they'll be OK, but I do question whether the corporate culture there is capable of absorbing the lessons it needs to learn.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7647825, member: 82106"] Ehhhhh, I don't think that would work. I'm no game industry expert, but I do know a good bit about open source software. You can certainly license code to other people, its a common business model, but I think Ryan is right to a certain extent, in the gaming world it isn't rules that are all that important, it is more the shared play style and the whole 'culture' of the game. There's just no big reason why (and probably very little money in) licensing out game engines. I can write one pretty easily and certainly the people that do it for a living can knock out core rules in their sleep. A non-free OGL wouldn't be fundamentally an 'O'GL, it would be a license to be dependent on WotC. In fact the GSL is pretty much exactly what you're suggesting. There is SOME GSL content out there, but not much, and notice it is still FREE, just not OPEN. Open licensing works precisely because you DO surrender control. OGL was a success, and is still a success in and of itself. WotC just picked up its marbles and left the table, so now they're dealt out. Personally I really LIKE 4e a lot, but the problem it has is cultural, in several ways. First it clearly threatened people's notion of their game. Just by existing as a different game from what they professed loyalty to before it questions that loyalty. Then WotC had the questionable (IE BAD) judgment to pretty much state that 4e was better and 3e was not cool, which just made the threat into a direct attack. That was bad. Then WotC overpromised and underdelivered on DDI. DDI is great, but they promised some pie-in-the-sky vision of it instead of what they could deliver. That never makes a good impression. There was an even more insidious and in the end perhaps even worse mistake they made. They created Paizo. How much of the staff of Paizo used to work for WotC? How many of their freelancers are ex-WotC employees? Most hideous of all was a master mistake they made years ago. They gave Paizo Dragon and Dungeon AND THEY LET THE CUSTOMERS KNOW. Its one thing to use a service bureau to publish and distribute your publication, but they let Paizo interface with the customers. How do you think Paizo became a game company and had name recognition that they could leverage to put out Pathfinder? WotC made them a name that people knew, and then 'licensed' them a game system that validated a whole disaffected bunch of customers preferences, and handily made available all kinds of talent that could develop for it. I don't mean to imply that the people at Paizo didn't do all the right things and haven't busted their tails to make it work. Of course they have, and they've done a wonderful job of interfacing with the customers and the rest of the gaming business community. Still, they were handed a fully cooked meal on a silver platter that only needed to be served. Plainly speaking if guys like Ryan were running the D&D division at WotC, where do you think D&D would be? Who knows, but somehow the people that make the decisions there are disconnected from what needed to be done and made basic business mistakes, some of them long before 4e, and they're paying the price now. 4e itself, in some form, perhaps with different presentation, was basically a logical move, and they made a fine game. They just haven't understood how to please a good chunk of the community and make dumb mistakes. Even so, WotC can survive and if they have the will they can probably just live through it. If they can learn from it then they'll be OK, but I do question whether the corporate culture there is capable of absorbing the lessons it needs to learn. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
4 Hours w/ RSD - Escapist Bonus Column
Top