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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4e/13thA immersion question and 5e/13thA DoaM question
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6266211" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This one is difficult to answer but I'll try. Here is some primary background for myself and my group and I think part of our answer lies in this reality. Our group is all composed of athletes who have all (but one) competed at the collegiate level. Our group is composed of engineers, an accountant and a natural scientist. We all have a deep history of card games, board games, RTS/twitch CRPGs, and other strategic/tactical games.</p><p></p><p>You mentioned the NFL QB check-list and auto-pilot behavior above. I think that is a very shrewd observation. There is a well-developed, subconscious OODA Loop that asserts itself in athletics the same as it does for pilots. I think the more developed and natural this mode of activating a response becomes, the more natural, intiutive (and sensical) something like 13th Age or the 4e Defender suite of control abilities is to the player. Further, when you're careers, backgrounds, and other leisure activities perpetuate that natural mode of activating a response in line with a mechanical system, it becomes easier and more natural still.</p><p></p><p>Further, I think these biographical tidbits also work to appreciate rulesets with the aesthetic of an "engineering manual" versus those with "natural language."</p><p></p><p>Developing a focused OODA Loop orientation to stimuli (and the perspective that comes from such orientation) is doable for anyone and just a matter of exposure to technique, conceptual internalization, and practice/refinement. I would probably suggest playing other leisure activities that require assimilation of information along multiple vectors and tactical deployment in real time (most ball sports). Once that is done, the tactical overhead ceases to be a distraction and is actually a boon for play (especially if you feel that the tactical overhead properly represents the OODA loop in a real martial scenario). You're clearly a very smart fellow. I'm sure you'll get it done if you set your mind to it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no difference in the conception between the two that I am aware of. Both systems create a composite of mitigation and avoidance through AC. Both systems use abstract HPs to represent heroic staying power (though I think 13th Age may be more overt about this). Both systems use similar metagame action economies and contests to determine "damage-in".</p><p></p><p>I don't think most detractors of DoaM are, or will be, playing 13th Age any time soon. I'm not sure where Imaro stands on DoaM but he definitely has certain aesthetic preferences that go against something such as DoaM. Nonetheless, as a good sport, he gave it a go and GMed some for a group. He didn't seem to have a bad time. However, his anecdote notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure Heinsoo's D&D (4e) and Heinsoo's D&D but not D&D (13th Age) will have a considerable overlap of detractors due to various system elements.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6266211, member: 6696971"] This one is difficult to answer but I'll try. Here is some primary background for myself and my group and I think part of our answer lies in this reality. Our group is all composed of athletes who have all (but one) competed at the collegiate level. Our group is composed of engineers, an accountant and a natural scientist. We all have a deep history of card games, board games, RTS/twitch CRPGs, and other strategic/tactical games. You mentioned the NFL QB check-list and auto-pilot behavior above. I think that is a very shrewd observation. There is a well-developed, subconscious OODA Loop that asserts itself in athletics the same as it does for pilots. I think the more developed and natural this mode of activating a response becomes, the more natural, intiutive (and sensical) something like 13th Age or the 4e Defender suite of control abilities is to the player. Further, when you're careers, backgrounds, and other leisure activities perpetuate that natural mode of activating a response in line with a mechanical system, it becomes easier and more natural still. Further, I think these biographical tidbits also work to appreciate rulesets with the aesthetic of an "engineering manual" versus those with "natural language." Developing a focused OODA Loop orientation to stimuli (and the perspective that comes from such orientation) is doable for anyone and just a matter of exposure to technique, conceptual internalization, and practice/refinement. I would probably suggest playing other leisure activities that require assimilation of information along multiple vectors and tactical deployment in real time (most ball sports). Once that is done, the tactical overhead ceases to be a distraction and is actually a boon for play (especially if you feel that the tactical overhead properly represents the OODA loop in a real martial scenario). You're clearly a very smart fellow. I'm sure you'll get it done if you set your mind to it. There is no difference in the conception between the two that I am aware of. Both systems create a composite of mitigation and avoidance through AC. Both systems use abstract HPs to represent heroic staying power (though I think 13th Age may be more overt about this). Both systems use similar metagame action economies and contests to determine "damage-in". I don't think most detractors of DoaM are, or will be, playing 13th Age any time soon. I'm not sure where Imaro stands on DoaM but he definitely has certain aesthetic preferences that go against something such as DoaM. Nonetheless, as a good sport, he gave it a go and GMed some for a group. He didn't seem to have a bad time. However, his anecdote notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure Heinsoo's D&D (4e) and Heinsoo's D&D but not D&D (13th Age) will have a considerable overlap of detractors due to various system elements. [/QUOTE]
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