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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7525609" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I'm going to briefly transliterate what the various gamestates would be like in 4e, given the above. Afterward, I'll discuss the differences in play (the mental framework of players, the mental framework of GMs, the general feel of the each game, the nature of the movement from one gamestate to the next). </p><p></p><p><strong>* Skill Challenge Level + 2 Complexity 1; parley</strong></p><p></p><p>This would be a failed parley leading into a combat with enemy vehicles. This and the next encounter I did not GM, but I roughly know of what happened in the preceding 5e session and can easily sort out what that may look like in 4e. </p><p></p><p><strong>Situation: </strong></p><p></p><p>The PCs have arrived at the nexus of the alien apocalypse. They are below the Far Realm "Mother Ship" which is hovering some 1000 feet up. They begin to to feel the local temporal distortion, courtesy of The Time Reaper onboard the Mother Ship (5e this was Disadvantage on attacks, ability checks, saves).</p><p></p><p>They are greeted by a series of shock troops piloting hoverpods and some AT-ST-like ground support vehicles which includes the leader of this crew manning the lead vehicle. They attempt to parley with him. It doesn't work. </p><p></p><p>Let us assume the 4e PCs (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) are level 23 in this scenario. </p><p></p><p>Level +2 Complexity 1 Parley would mean the following. 4 (typically) moderate DC successes before 3 failures w/ 1 Secondary Skill available (typically an easy to moderate DC check to augment a primary check). DCs would be 21, 29, and 38.</p><p></p><p><strong>Of note</strong>: The Wizard through this point of the game (and all PCs) would have accrued 325,000 (level -1 magic item $ equivalent) as resources to spend on various things (Consumables, Ritual Casting cost, purchasing Ritual Books for scribing or puchasing them at Market price, Vehicles/Mounts/Hirelings, successes in Skill Challenges where people could be bought off or assets could be purchased to trigger a success, etc). Who knows how much of that 325,000 would have been spent to date by these characters. </p><p></p><p>The Wizard in the 5e game had a <em>Tongues </em>spell active. They <strong>don't have to roll Arcana to understand</strong>, but this is a <strong>3rd level spell investment for only an hour duration.</strong> This would be a prerequisite (or something akin to it) to engage in a parley at all. The 4e Wizard definitely has much more potency and less resource expenditure in this domain. <em>Comprehend Languages</em> is a 1st level Ritual which only costs 10 GP to cast (Ritual costs scale dramatically, but there are some very solid low level Rituals). Further, it only requires a DC 35 Arcana to be able to speak the language functionally. Wizards at this level will have a +24 or better Arcana check. If one expenditure doesn't work, the 2nd or 3rd one will. Furthermore, the 4e Wizard has a <strong>24 hour duration </strong>for this trivial. Unfortunately, unlike Tongues, it doesn't allow you to cast it on other creatures. </p><p></p><p>So let us assume the 4e Wizard has the Comprehend Languages Ritual (extremely likely) and its active here (of course).</p><p></p><p>There really are no Ritual options for the actual parley that would (a) be feasible due to casting time restrictions or (b) be cost-effective (due to casting cost) for the situation-at-hand. So the Comprehend Languages here would basically enable Diplomacy and Bluff for the Wizard (with them stepping up to High) and keep Insight at the Moderate DC. </p><p></p><p>Intimidate seems sensible at the Moderate DC, but the Rogue and the Fighter are probably dealing with High DCs for other social skills unless the fiction somehow warranted it.</p><p></p><p>However, the initial framing of situation by the GM would be extremely relevant here as it would narrow or broaden prospective action declarations for the PCs. Note, that, unlike classic D&D where the GM rolls a Reaction Roll for the PCs, 5e handles this initial framing in the same way as 4e does; GM determines initial attitude and framing.</p><p></p><p>This is a significant deviation from classic D&D. But more on that tomorrow and then we'll move through the possible initial framing and action declarations (tired, going to bed).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7525609, member: 6696971"] I'm going to briefly transliterate what the various gamestates would be like in 4e, given the above. Afterward, I'll discuss the differences in play (the mental framework of players, the mental framework of GMs, the general feel of the each game, the nature of the movement from one gamestate to the next). [B]* Skill Challenge Level + 2 Complexity 1; parley[/B] This would be a failed parley leading into a combat with enemy vehicles. This and the next encounter I did not GM, but I roughly know of what happened in the preceding 5e session and can easily sort out what that may look like in 4e. [B]Situation: [/B] The PCs have arrived at the nexus of the alien apocalypse. They are below the Far Realm "Mother Ship" which is hovering some 1000 feet up. They begin to to feel the local temporal distortion, courtesy of The Time Reaper onboard the Mother Ship (5e this was Disadvantage on attacks, ability checks, saves). They are greeted by a series of shock troops piloting hoverpods and some AT-ST-like ground support vehicles which includes the leader of this crew manning the lead vehicle. They attempt to parley with him. It doesn't work. Let us assume the 4e PCs (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) are level 23 in this scenario. Level +2 Complexity 1 Parley would mean the following. 4 (typically) moderate DC successes before 3 failures w/ 1 Secondary Skill available (typically an easy to moderate DC check to augment a primary check). DCs would be 21, 29, and 38. [B]Of note[/B]: The Wizard through this point of the game (and all PCs) would have accrued 325,000 (level -1 magic item $ equivalent) as resources to spend on various things (Consumables, Ritual Casting cost, purchasing Ritual Books for scribing or puchasing them at Market price, Vehicles/Mounts/Hirelings, successes in Skill Challenges where people could be bought off or assets could be purchased to trigger a success, etc). Who knows how much of that 325,000 would have been spent to date by these characters. The Wizard in the 5e game had a [I]Tongues [/I]spell active. They [B]don't have to roll Arcana to understand[/B], but this is a [B]3rd level spell investment for only an hour duration.[/B] This would be a prerequisite (or something akin to it) to engage in a parley at all. The 4e Wizard definitely has much more potency and less resource expenditure in this domain. [I]Comprehend Languages[/I] is a 1st level Ritual which only costs 10 GP to cast (Ritual costs scale dramatically, but there are some very solid low level Rituals). Further, it only requires a DC 35 Arcana to be able to speak the language functionally. Wizards at this level will have a +24 or better Arcana check. If one expenditure doesn't work, the 2nd or 3rd one will. Furthermore, the 4e Wizard has a [B]24 hour duration [/B]for this trivial. Unfortunately, unlike Tongues, it doesn't allow you to cast it on other creatures. So let us assume the 4e Wizard has the Comprehend Languages Ritual (extremely likely) and its active here (of course). There really are no Ritual options for the actual parley that would (a) be feasible due to casting time restrictions or (b) be cost-effective (due to casting cost) for the situation-at-hand. So the Comprehend Languages here would basically enable Diplomacy and Bluff for the Wizard (with them stepping up to High) and keep Insight at the Moderate DC. Intimidate seems sensible at the Moderate DC, but the Rogue and the Fighter are probably dealing with High DCs for other social skills unless the fiction somehow warranted it. However, the initial framing of situation by the GM would be extremely relevant here as it would narrow or broaden prospective action declarations for the PCs. Note, that, unlike classic D&D where the GM rolls a Reaction Roll for the PCs, 5e handles this initial framing in the same way as 4e does; GM determines initial attitude and framing. This is a significant deviation from classic D&D. But more on that tomorrow and then we'll move through the possible initial framing and action declarations (tired, going to bed). [/QUOTE]
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