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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7526185" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>It doesn't break the maths. Obviously having opponents 7 levels higher will put the maths under pressure, but the way you get an interesing level + 7 encounter is through increasing the number of threats.</p><p></p><p>Obviously an 8th level cmbat encounter will cream a 1st level party; and an 18th level one will be pretty hard for an 11th level party; but [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] is talking about epic tier.</p><p></p><p>Here's an <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468466-Session-report-Victory-over-Orcus-escape-from-the-Abyss" target="_blank">actual play report</a> of a level 37 encounter for a 29th level party. It didn't break the maths. It's one of many experiences that makes me believe that (i) the 4e maths is very solid (without the Expertise feats, which my table doesn't use), and (ii) the game is incredibly robust across a wide range of encounter difficulties.</p><p></p><p>Later on in the same "day" (and having reached 30th level), that group of PCs had a 36th level combat encounter that I don't think I wrote up (with no foe above 29th level), skill challenge-y stuff to escape the collapsing Abyss, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470791-Session-report-the-party-comes-close-to-a-split-but-not-quite" target="_blank">a 34th level combat encounter</a> with most of the opponents 28th but one 29th, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?480707-Session-report-PCs-defeat-Kas-but-cede-the-battlefield-to-Osterneth" target="_blank">which stepped up to around 35th</a> when some liches were conjured up. The PCs then did <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?484945-Session-report-the-Mausoleum-of-the-Raven-Queen" target="_blank">more non-combat stuff before fighting and beating a 29th level solo.</a></p><p></p><p>I don't know what the designers had in mind - I suspect that epic wasn't super-heavily playtested - but at least as I've experienced it you need this degree of pressure if you're going to produce interesting play experiences.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: The biggest level gap I've used in 4e was 25th level PCs vs 34th level Torog. Here's how I handled it:</p><p></p><p>A significant contributor to Torog's demise was auto-damage, which is not too hard to get if you have an epic tier sorcerer.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7526185, member: 42582"] It doesn't break the maths. Obviously having opponents 7 levels higher will put the maths under pressure, but the way you get an interesing level + 7 encounter is through increasing the number of threats. Obviously an 8th level cmbat encounter will cream a 1st level party; and an 18th level one will be pretty hard for an 11th level party; but [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] is talking about epic tier. Here's an [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468466-Session-report-Victory-over-Orcus-escape-from-the-Abyss]actual play report[/url] of a level 37 encounter for a 29th level party. It didn't break the maths. It's one of many experiences that makes me believe that (i) the 4e maths is very solid (without the Expertise feats, which my table doesn't use), and (ii) the game is incredibly robust across a wide range of encounter difficulties. Later on in the same "day" (and having reached 30th level), that group of PCs had a 36th level combat encounter that I don't think I wrote up (with no foe above 29th level), skill challenge-y stuff to escape the collapsing Abyss, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470791-Session-report-the-party-comes-close-to-a-split-but-not-quite]a 34th level combat encounter[/url] with most of the opponents 28th but one 29th, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?480707-Session-report-PCs-defeat-Kas-but-cede-the-battlefield-to-Osterneth]which stepped up to around 35th[/url] when some liches were conjured up. The PCs then did [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?484945-Session-report-the-Mausoleum-of-the-Raven-Queen]more non-combat stuff before fighting and beating a 29th level solo.[/url] I don't know what the designers had in mind - I suspect that epic wasn't super-heavily playtested - but at least as I've experienced it you need this degree of pressure if you're going to produce interesting play experiences. EDIT: The biggest level gap I've used in 4e was 25th level PCs vs 34th level Torog. Here's how I handled it: A significant contributor to Torog's demise was auto-damage, which is not too hard to get if you have an epic tier sorcerer. [/QUOTE]
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