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[4e] Paladin (feat) advice needed
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6842661" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>He's obviously welcome to participate <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> Anyway, I don't think we're discussing him in a "you know, that Keehnelf guy..." sort of way. His style and professed experience and attitudes just seem to shed a bit different light onto this whole question about how 'old school' works and what really are the roots of these different styles of game. </p><p></p><p>I'm trying to remember carefully what we played and how we played it back in the old old days, and where it went from there. I recall playing and running a bastardized D&D that was basically Holmes Basic extrapolated forward via OD&D plus the Monster Manual when that appeared, and then largely replaced with the PHB when that came out (at which point we still had to use a lot of OD&D mechanics, as the DMG came out a full 2 years after the MM). All of these books, at the time, seemed to profess the same kind of play. We pretty much followed in the mold of Gygax, AFAICT. There wasn't really a goal of RP to any really great extent. It was a game of treasure seeking and reward, played in a 'troupe play' kind of style.</p><p></p><p>We also played Boot Hill, which was just a silly sort of shoot-em-up thing, nobody survived for more than 2 sessions, so RP and narrative were non-existent. Gamma World/Met. Alpha was pretty similar, although I seem to recall that game as encouraging a bit more interest in the characters (they were incredibly goofy, so it was amusing to actually try to RP what your 8 legged dog monster character with 3 laser pistols thought of sentient trees). </p><p></p><p>Traveller was the really the only significant thing I remember running that was at all outside the basic scheme of old D&D. That game did encourage some amount of emergent story since your character had a bit of history from the generation process, plus there wasn't any advancement, so you really HAD to work on story (and items weren't much of a thing in that game either really). The system isn't much help though, its as purely simulationist as anything going. Maybe it served the same purpose for me that RM served for Pemerton. I'm pretty sure I hankered for some narrativist "story game" mechanics to go with that system, but we knew nothing of such things in 1977.</p><p></p><p>There was also Bushido, which I only ever played. Terrible mechanics, but with a real emphasis on RP. I think that was really the first game where we truly realized there was something else beyond just the idea of an RPG as a better or worse simulationist experience. </p><p></p><p>There was an intermediate stage of games that came out in the early 80's. Top Secret, Marvel Super Heroes, Gangster, Call of Cthulhu, and then finally Paranoia! fell into that group. They're games that WANT story, but still lack real story building mechanics. Their material is about stories, the designers simply had no language in which to express that. I ran a CoC game a couple years ago, and it was painful. I finally just had to ditch the rules, they simply get in the way. Back in the mid-80's though it seemed the epitome of RPG design excellence, both quite realistic in terms of its mechanics, and yet very thematic in the sense that PCs were just pretty much monster food.</p><p></p><p>I think the first game that I actually experienced with genuine narrative mechanics was Toon. Even that game still doesn't QUITE reach the level of giving out plot coupons though. Players are allowed to do ANYTHING, even break the rules, if it 'works' narratively, but there isn't an actual mechanical regulation of that side of the game.</p><p></p><p>I never did play any of the WW games, Vampire, etc. They were considered to be silly and childish in our circles for whatever reason (and associated with LARP, which was considered a rather weird idea, even though most of us were perfectly happy to get involved in SCA sort of stuff, go figure). We really literally remained ignorant of any details of these early 90's story games at the time. Instead we went back to 2e and tried to force it to do what we wanted, lol. Personally I was stuck there, and too busy to DM or play much, until I grabbed a copy of 4e and all of a sudden I grasped a whole other set of possibilities. Odd, since 4e doesn't really QUITE have plot coupons, but it does somehow bridge between something like FATE and D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6842661, member: 82106"] He's obviously welcome to participate ;) Anyway, I don't think we're discussing him in a "you know, that Keehnelf guy..." sort of way. His style and professed experience and attitudes just seem to shed a bit different light onto this whole question about how 'old school' works and what really are the roots of these different styles of game. I'm trying to remember carefully what we played and how we played it back in the old old days, and where it went from there. I recall playing and running a bastardized D&D that was basically Holmes Basic extrapolated forward via OD&D plus the Monster Manual when that appeared, and then largely replaced with the PHB when that came out (at which point we still had to use a lot of OD&D mechanics, as the DMG came out a full 2 years after the MM). All of these books, at the time, seemed to profess the same kind of play. We pretty much followed in the mold of Gygax, AFAICT. There wasn't really a goal of RP to any really great extent. It was a game of treasure seeking and reward, played in a 'troupe play' kind of style. We also played Boot Hill, which was just a silly sort of shoot-em-up thing, nobody survived for more than 2 sessions, so RP and narrative were non-existent. Gamma World/Met. Alpha was pretty similar, although I seem to recall that game as encouraging a bit more interest in the characters (they were incredibly goofy, so it was amusing to actually try to RP what your 8 legged dog monster character with 3 laser pistols thought of sentient trees). Traveller was the really the only significant thing I remember running that was at all outside the basic scheme of old D&D. That game did encourage some amount of emergent story since your character had a bit of history from the generation process, plus there wasn't any advancement, so you really HAD to work on story (and items weren't much of a thing in that game either really). The system isn't much help though, its as purely simulationist as anything going. Maybe it served the same purpose for me that RM served for Pemerton. I'm pretty sure I hankered for some narrativist "story game" mechanics to go with that system, but we knew nothing of such things in 1977. There was also Bushido, which I only ever played. Terrible mechanics, but with a real emphasis on RP. I think that was really the first game where we truly realized there was something else beyond just the idea of an RPG as a better or worse simulationist experience. There was an intermediate stage of games that came out in the early 80's. Top Secret, Marvel Super Heroes, Gangster, Call of Cthulhu, and then finally Paranoia! fell into that group. They're games that WANT story, but still lack real story building mechanics. Their material is about stories, the designers simply had no language in which to express that. I ran a CoC game a couple years ago, and it was painful. I finally just had to ditch the rules, they simply get in the way. Back in the mid-80's though it seemed the epitome of RPG design excellence, both quite realistic in terms of its mechanics, and yet very thematic in the sense that PCs were just pretty much monster food. I think the first game that I actually experienced with genuine narrative mechanics was Toon. Even that game still doesn't QUITE reach the level of giving out plot coupons though. Players are allowed to do ANYTHING, even break the rules, if it 'works' narratively, but there isn't an actual mechanical regulation of that side of the game. I never did play any of the WW games, Vampire, etc. They were considered to be silly and childish in our circles for whatever reason (and associated with LARP, which was considered a rather weird idea, even though most of us were perfectly happy to get involved in SCA sort of stuff, go figure). We really literally remained ignorant of any details of these early 90's story games at the time. Instead we went back to 2e and tried to force it to do what we wanted, lol. Personally I was stuck there, and too busy to DM or play much, until I grabbed a copy of 4e and all of a sudden I grasped a whole other set of possibilities. Odd, since 4e doesn't really QUITE have plot coupons, but it does somehow bridge between something like FATE and D&D. [/QUOTE]
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[4e] Paladin (feat) advice needed
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