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4th to 5th Edition Converters - What has been your experience?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6867915" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>It seemed like the relevant difference was in the published adventures. Classic D&D had adventures peppered with little DM secrets along the lines of "if a character rubs hydrosulphuric acid on the underside of the brass gargoyle in area Q, using a chamois cloth in a counter-clockwise motion, they discover... " modern games had actual mechanics for finding stuff based on the character's abilities, not <em>just</em> the players' action declarations. 5e goes the amusing path of having the mechanics listed, but having a core resolution system that lets the DM substitute success/failure/whatever-else-he-wants-in-narrating-the-results-of-an-action for actually using those mechanics. So it's every bit as skill-roll-driven or player-skill-driven as the DM wants it to be.</p><p></p><p>Bare SC mechanics do work for just 'cutting to the chase' and resolving a whole-party task without dwelling on the details of it any more than you want to (which could be a lot, if you dressed the challenge up, and can be fun) or putting in a single point of failure that holds up the whole game until someone goes back and performs the correct action in the right place.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, your DM needs to use fewer, tougher enemies, or more, more spread-out ones. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>And you'd all have to if you wanted to 'Alpha Strike' an encounter, which still didn't work at all dependably. Though when it did, it could seem pretty spectacular. </p><p></p><p>Nod. Thus 6-8 encounters. You've only got 3 fireballs, that's less than have the expected encounters. And they're meant to be trivial, so blow up 3 trivial encounters, you get to look flashy, but the rest of the party was going to kill them all by the second or third round, anyway at no meaningful risk, and the cost of a few hps instead of a top-level spell.</p><p></p><p>Yeah, boring and samey. ;P </p><p></p><p>Does 5e ever use the words 'spell' and 'failure' in the same sentence? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>For most classes more and more of a range than in 4e, too. Most caster classes but the Wizard, who already got cantrips over and above at-wills. Of course, is you don't cast spells...</p><p>Gone. No at-wills beyond basic attacks, no dailies, encounters limited to one sub-class. Combat Challenge, gone. Combat Superiority, gone. Feats, optional. Marking, only if everyone can do it. </p><p>contracted back to something like what it was in 2e and 3e. Jury's still out on exactly where the sweet spot is. 5-9? 3-11?</p><p></p><p>Yep, 3 distinct Tiers: randomly-deadly un-heroic struggling low-level, playable/heroic mid-level 'sweet spot,' high level crazybrokenfun. Prettymuch the 'sweet spot' thing from a different angle. </p><p></p><p>With both the Sweet Spot and Tiered Play aspects, 5e has a neat little feature: the exp tables are weighted to minimize your time in the first and last Tiers and maximize enjoyment of the sweetspot. </p><p>Clever.</p><p></p><p>5e has successfully swung the pendulum back to the DM's side of the screen. It is incredibly fun to run, you can improve like crazy, you have carte blanche and there's little resistance from players. But you gotta throw out those guidelines... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Which Bounded Accuracy is meant to enable.</p><p></p><p> I've always been mystified by how 'canard' came to have that meaning when it's root means 'duck.' </p><p></p><p>Seriously, though, 5e can be adapted to any style of play, because it puts so much of the game exclusively in the DM's hands. You can't so much as build a character without knowing which explicit rules options your DM is using. Basic pdf? PH Standard? Feat Option? MC Option? DMG Modules? You can't roll a d20 until the DM has judged success/fail/roll and assigned a DC. With that level of DM Empowerment/dependency, the DM really can just mold the game to whatever style he wants, if not by on-the-fly rulings, then by opting in or out of rules, player choices, or modules, if not by that, if not by that, then via on-line resources like L&L and DMsGuild, if not by that, then by re-writing as much of the game as he wants.</p><p></p><p>I guess 4e is the odd D&D out when it comes to commonality of play experience.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6867915, member: 996"] It seemed like the relevant difference was in the published adventures. Classic D&D had adventures peppered with little DM secrets along the lines of "if a character rubs hydrosulphuric acid on the underside of the brass gargoyle in area Q, using a chamois cloth in a counter-clockwise motion, they discover... " modern games had actual mechanics for finding stuff based on the character's abilities, not [i]just[/i] the players' action declarations. 5e goes the amusing path of having the mechanics listed, but having a core resolution system that lets the DM substitute success/failure/whatever-else-he-wants-in-narrating-the-results-of-an-action for actually using those mechanics. So it's every bit as skill-roll-driven or player-skill-driven as the DM wants it to be. Bare SC mechanics do work for just 'cutting to the chase' and resolving a whole-party task without dwelling on the details of it any more than you want to (which could be a lot, if you dressed the challenge up, and can be fun) or putting in a single point of failure that holds up the whole game until someone goes back and performs the correct action in the right place. Obviously, your DM needs to use fewer, tougher enemies, or more, more spread-out ones. ;) And you'd all have to if you wanted to 'Alpha Strike' an encounter, which still didn't work at all dependably. Though when it did, it could seem pretty spectacular. Nod. Thus 6-8 encounters. You've only got 3 fireballs, that's less than have the expected encounters. And they're meant to be trivial, so blow up 3 trivial encounters, you get to look flashy, but the rest of the party was going to kill them all by the second or third round, anyway at no meaningful risk, and the cost of a few hps instead of a top-level spell. Yeah, boring and samey. ;P Does 5e ever use the words 'spell' and 'failure' in the same sentence? ;) For most classes more and more of a range than in 4e, too. Most caster classes but the Wizard, who already got cantrips over and above at-wills. Of course, is you don't cast spells... Gone. No at-wills beyond basic attacks, no dailies, encounters limited to one sub-class. Combat Challenge, gone. Combat Superiority, gone. Feats, optional. Marking, only if everyone can do it. contracted back to something like what it was in 2e and 3e. Jury's still out on exactly where the sweet spot is. 5-9? 3-11? Yep, 3 distinct Tiers: randomly-deadly un-heroic struggling low-level, playable/heroic mid-level 'sweet spot,' high level crazybrokenfun. Prettymuch the 'sweet spot' thing from a different angle. With both the Sweet Spot and Tiered Play aspects, 5e has a neat little feature: the exp tables are weighted to minimize your time in the first and last Tiers and maximize enjoyment of the sweetspot. Clever. 5e has successfully swung the pendulum back to the DM's side of the screen. It is incredibly fun to run, you can improve like crazy, you have carte blanche and there's little resistance from players. But you gotta throw out those guidelines... ;) Which Bounded Accuracy is meant to enable. I've always been mystified by how 'canard' came to have that meaning when it's root means 'duck.' Seriously, though, 5e can be adapted to any style of play, because it puts so much of the game exclusively in the DM's hands. You can't so much as build a character without knowing which explicit rules options your DM is using. Basic pdf? PH Standard? Feat Option? MC Option? DMG Modules? You can't roll a d20 until the DM has judged success/fail/roll and assigned a DC. With that level of DM Empowerment/dependency, the DM really can just mold the game to whatever style he wants, if not by on-the-fly rulings, then by opting in or out of rules, player choices, or modules, if not by that, if not by that, then via on-line resources like L&L and DMsGuild, if not by that, then by re-writing as much of the game as he wants. I guess 4e is the odd D&D out when it comes to commonality of play experience. [/QUOTE]
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