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<blockquote data-quote="Jack the Lad" data-source="post: 6359150" data-attributes="member: 6777377"><p>I could not disagree with this thread more strongly. The 5e Necromancer is wildly overpowered, and he and his skeleton army can easily defeat even the strongest (up to CR17) monsters we've seen so far in 1 round.</p><p></p><p>A Necromancer's Animate Dead gets you 2 Skeletons at level 3 and 2 more for each spell level above that when cast as a higher level spell, and you have control of them for 24 hours.</p><p></p><p>You can also cast Animate Dead before that control lapses to 'refresh' your control of 4 + 2/level-above-3 Skeletons.</p><p></p><p>By spending your spells to summon Skeletons, taking a long rest and then spending your recovered spells to refresh your existing Skeletons and summon more with any remaining slots, you can work your way up to controlling as many as your spell slots will allow within the refresh ratio rather than the summon ratio.</p><p></p><p>A Necromancer can therefore summon or control up to the following number of Skeletons at each level:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><strong>Level<br /> </strong></td><td><strong>Summon</strong></td><td><strong>Control</strong></td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>4</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>8</td><td>16</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>12</td><td>22</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>18</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>28</td><td>44</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>34</td><td>52</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>42</td><td>62</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>42</td><td>64</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>52</td><td>76</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>54</td><td>78</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>66</td><td>92</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>68</td><td>94</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>82</td><td>110</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>88</td><td>118</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>96</td><td>128</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>110</td><td>146</td></tr></table><p> That's a lot of Skeletons, and each one can shoot their shortbow at +4 for 1d6+2+Prof damage. That's not much individually, as we can see from the chart of Skeleton damage per shot by level and opponent AC below, but when we're dealing with large numbers, it quickly adds up:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><br /> </td><td><strong>AC</strong></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><strong>Level<br /> </strong></td><td><strong>8</strong></td><td><strong>9</strong></td><td><strong>10</strong></td><td><strong>11</strong></td><td><strong>12</strong></td><td><strong>13</strong></td><td><strong>14</strong></td><td><strong>15</strong></td><td><strong>16</strong></td><td><strong>17</strong></td><td><strong>18</strong></td><td><strong>19</strong></td><td><strong>20</strong></td></tr><tr><td><strong>5<br /> </strong></td><td>7.4</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.6</td><td>6.1</td><td>5.7</td><td>5.3</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.3</td></tr><tr><td><strong>6</strong></td><td>7.4</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.6</td><td>6.1</td><td>5.7</td><td>5.3</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.3</td></tr><tr><td><strong>7</strong></td><td>7.4</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.6</td><td>6.1</td><td>5.7</td><td>5.3</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.3</td></tr><tr><td><strong>8</strong></td><td>7.4</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.6</td><td>6.1</td><td>5.7</td><td>5.3</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.3</td></tr><tr><td><strong>9</strong></td><td>8.3</td><td>7.8</td><td>7.3</td><td>6.8</td><td>6.4</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.5</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.6</td></tr><tr><td><strong>10</strong></td><td>8.3</td><td>7.8</td><td>7.3</td><td>6.8</td><td>6.4</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.5</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.6</td></tr><tr><td><strong>11</strong></td><td>8.3</td><td>7.8</td><td>7.3</td><td>6.8</td><td>6.4</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.5</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.6</td></tr><tr><td><strong>12</strong></td><td>8.3</td><td>7.8</td><td>7.3</td><td>6.8</td><td>6.4</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.5</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.6</td></tr><tr><td><strong>13</strong></td><td>9.1</td><td>8.6</td><td>8.1</td><td>7.5</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.5</td><td>6.0</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.8</td></tr><tr><td><strong>14</strong></td><td>9.1</td><td>8.6</td><td>8.1</td><td>7.5</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.5</td><td>6.0</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.8</td></tr><tr><td><strong>15</strong></td><td>9.1</td><td>8.6</td><td>8.1</td><td>7.5</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.5</td><td>6.0</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.8</td></tr><tr><td><strong>16</strong></td><td>9.1</td><td>8.6</td><td>8.1</td><td>7.5</td><td>7.0</td><td>6.5</td><td>6.0</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.9</td><td>4.4</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.8</td></tr><tr><td><strong>17</strong></td><td>10.0</td><td>9.4</td><td>8.8</td><td>8.2</td><td>7.7</td><td>7.1</td><td>6.5</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.8</td><td>4.2</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.1</td></tr><tr><td><strong>18</strong></td><td>10.0</td><td>9.4</td><td>8.8</td><td>8.2</td><td>7.7</td><td>7.1</td><td>6.5</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.8</td><td>4.2</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.1</td></tr><tr><td><strong>19</strong></td><td>10.0</td><td>9.4</td><td>8.8</td><td>8.2</td><td>7.7</td><td>7.1</td><td>6.5</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.8</td><td>4.2</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.1</td></tr><tr><td><strong>20</strong></td><td>10.0</td><td>9.4</td><td>8.8</td><td>8.2</td><td>7.7</td><td>7.1</td><td>6.5</td><td>5.9</td><td>5.4</td><td>4.8</td><td>4.2</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.1</td></tr></table><p> Let's look at the Adult Blue Dragon from the Hoard of the Dragon Queen. It's worth 15,000 XP and has 225 HP. It's a Medium encounter for a party of 5 level 16 PCs per the just-updated encounter guidelines.</p><p></p><p>62 Skeletons will, on average, with a +6 Proficiency modifier, kill the Adult Blue Dragon in one round.</p><p></p><p>If you grant your Skeletons Advantage with Otto's Irresistible Dance (which does not allow a save), it only takes 36 Skeletons.</p><p></p><p><strong>You can kill the CR16 Adult Blue Dragon in one round, on average, starting at level 13</strong>, when you're able to summon 44 slightly weaker Skeletons while still leaving a level 6 slot free for Otto's Irresistible Dance.</p><p></p><p>I haven't gone into casting all your spells to summon Skeletons, then resting for 8 hours and casting them all again for more, (which obviously doubles the numbers above) but you get the general idea.</p><p></p><p>In summary; summoned Skeletons bust the action economy wide open and do obscene damage in large groups, which you can begin to create at surprisingly low levels. The 5e Necromancer is ridiculously strong with Animate Dead in its current state.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jack the Lad, post: 6359150, member: 6777377"] I could not disagree with this thread more strongly. The 5e Necromancer is wildly overpowered, and he and his skeleton army can easily defeat even the strongest (up to CR17) monsters we've seen so far in 1 round. A Necromancer's Animate Dead gets you 2 Skeletons at level 3 and 2 more for each spell level above that when cast as a higher level spell, and you have control of them for 24 hours. You can also cast Animate Dead before that control lapses to 'refresh' your control of 4 + 2/level-above-3 Skeletons. By spending your spells to summon Skeletons, taking a long rest and then spending your recovered spells to refresh your existing Skeletons and summon more with any remaining slots, you can work your way up to controlling as many as your spell slots will allow within the refresh ratio rather than the summon ratio. A Necromancer can therefore summon or control up to the following number of Skeletons at each level: [TABLE="width: 216"] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 72, align: center"][B]Level [/B][/TD] [TD="class: xl67, width: 72, align: center"][B]Summon[/B][/TD] [TD="class: xl67, width: 72, align: center"][B]Control[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]6[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]7[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]12[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]18[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]30[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]9[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]28[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]44[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]10[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]34[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]52[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]11[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]42[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]62[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]12[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]42[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]64[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]13[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]52[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]76[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]14[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]54[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]78[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]15[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]66[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]92[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]68[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]94[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]17[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]82[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]110[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]18[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]88[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]118[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]19[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]96[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]128[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]20[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]110[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, align: center"]146[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] That's a lot of Skeletons, and each one can shoot their shortbow at +4 for 1d6+2+Prof damage. That's not much individually, as we can see from the chart of Skeleton damage per shot by level and opponent AC below, but when we're dealing with large numbers, it quickly adds up: [TABLE="width: 534"] [TR] [TD="align: center"] [/TD] [TD="colspan: 13, align: center"][B]AC[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]Level [/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]8[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]9[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]10[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]11[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]12[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]13[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]14[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]15[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]16[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]17[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]18[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]19[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"][B]20[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]5 [/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]6[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]7[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]8[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]9[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]10[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]11[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]12[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]13[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]14[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]15[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]16[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]17[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]10.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]18[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]10.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]19[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]10.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: center"][B]20[/B][/TD] [TD="align: center"]10.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.9[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.1[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Let's look at the Adult Blue Dragon from the Hoard of the Dragon Queen. It's worth 15,000 XP and has 225 HP. It's a Medium encounter for a party of 5 level 16 PCs per the just-updated encounter guidelines. 62 Skeletons will, on average, with a +6 Proficiency modifier, kill the Adult Blue Dragon in one round. If you grant your Skeletons Advantage with Otto's Irresistible Dance (which does not allow a save), it only takes 36 Skeletons. [B]You can kill the CR16 Adult Blue Dragon in one round, on average, starting at level 13[/B], when you're able to summon 44 slightly weaker Skeletons while still leaving a level 6 slot free for Otto's Irresistible Dance. I haven't gone into casting all your spells to summon Skeletons, then resting for 8 hours and casting them all again for more, (which obviously doubles the numbers above) but you get the general idea. In summary; summoned Skeletons bust the action economy wide open and do obscene damage in large groups, which you can begin to create at surprisingly low levels. The 5e Necromancer is ridiculously strong with Animate Dead in its current state. [/QUOTE]
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