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5e completely nerfed charm - for YOU, anyway
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<blockquote data-quote="Morlock" data-source="post: 6822644" data-attributes="member: 6776981"><p>You were making the argument that a vampire's charm is weaker than domination spells. A player could say, "fine I accept your argument" and then argue that substituting vampire's charm for one of the dominate spells available to players wouldn't upset game balance. On the contrary, the players would be using a custom spell that is "inferior" to the spells in the RAW. It's a classic argument/negotiation error. I.e., don't be surprised when B'rer Rabbit wants to go into the Brier Patch, or when you find out that you <em>really did</em> sell Jack magic beans.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Funny, it worked that way in BECMI. Rules Cyclopedia, Charm Person:</p><p></p><p> [...] </p><p></p><p>And in AD&D. Magic-User version is as the spell, Charm Person or Mammal:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And in AD&D 2nd Edition. Charm Person:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And in D&D 3rd Edition. Charm Person:</p><p></p><p> [...] </p><p></p><p>***</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah and I'm saying I'd rather have those "different" effects; I'd rather have the vampire's charm effects than Charm Person or Dominate Person.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I pasted the wrong text in the first quote. The passage should read:</p><p></p><p>Replace the following text in the spell description:</p><p></p><p>Dominate Beast, Dominate Monster, Dominate Person:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>With the new text:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>***</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Players shouldn't have nerfed Charm/Dominate spells, if Monsters have Charm/Dominate that read like the Charms in BECMI/1e/2e/3e. Vampire's charm is like an at-will 15th level spell, going by the way the Charm/Dominate spells available to players are written.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I accomplished with the rewrites.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Player/monster symmetry is irrelevant. I don't want the Charm/Dominate spells available to players to completely suck compared to the vampire's charm, especially when the latter is an at-will ability that lasts 24 hours and doesn't require concentration. Never seen anything in the lit to support the idea that vampire's charm rules while the enchantress' charm drools.</p><p></p><p>I'd rather see classic spells bumped up in level until they're balanced than see their descriptions nerfed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, suggestion, geas, etc., are all much better than the charm/dominate spells.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Morlock, post: 6822644, member: 6776981"] You were making the argument that a vampire's charm is weaker than domination spells. A player could say, "fine I accept your argument" and then argue that substituting vampire's charm for one of the dominate spells available to players wouldn't upset game balance. On the contrary, the players would be using a custom spell that is "inferior" to the spells in the RAW. It's a classic argument/negotiation error. I.e., don't be surprised when B'rer Rabbit wants to go into the Brier Patch, or when you find out that you [i]really did[/i] sell Jack magic beans. Funny, it worked that way in BECMI. Rules Cyclopedia, Charm Person: [...] And in AD&D. Magic-User version is as the spell, Charm Person or Mammal: And in AD&D 2nd Edition. Charm Person: And in D&D 3rd Edition. Charm Person: [...] *** Yeah and I'm saying I'd rather have those "different" effects; I'd rather have the vampire's charm effects than Charm Person or Dominate Person. No, I pasted the wrong text in the first quote. The passage should read: Replace the following text in the spell description: Dominate Beast, Dominate Monster, Dominate Person: With the new text: *** Players shouldn't have nerfed Charm/Dominate spells, if Monsters have Charm/Dominate that read like the Charms in BECMI/1e/2e/3e. Vampire's charm is like an at-will 15th level spell, going by the way the Charm/Dominate spells available to players are written. What I accomplished with the rewrites. Player/monster symmetry is irrelevant. I don't want the Charm/Dominate spells available to players to completely suck compared to the vampire's charm, especially when the latter is an at-will ability that lasts 24 hours and doesn't require concentration. Never seen anything in the lit to support the idea that vampire's charm rules while the enchantress' charm drools. I'd rather see classic spells bumped up in level until they're balanced than see their descriptions nerfed. Yes, suggestion, geas, etc., are all much better than the charm/dominate spells. [/QUOTE]
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