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<blockquote data-quote="UnknownDyson" data-source="post: 6712627" data-attributes="member: 6801369"><p>Fair points all in all, I will do my best to make my case. Regarding Tharizdun pre 4e he has always been regarded as a major threat. Back then it seems that he was a deity in the greyhawk campaign setting and existed in almost the same capacity that he does now, except that he wasn't imprisoned. He was the main antagonist of the Gord the Rogue novels by Gary Gygax. He was described as The Anathema, The Undoer, The Ender, and the Father of Elder Evils. So still very much a being of entropy. Tharizdun has also been described by some as a god originating from the far realm. It has been hinted at in some source books that the forgotten realms deity Ghaunadar is an unimprisoned aspect of Tharizdun (I can provide sources if you like). I would agree that he is a schemer you are definitely right there. His masquerading as the Elder Elemental Eye to trick primordials and other elementals is proof of that. But I would argue that his goal among all editions is always the complete annihilation of existence. The means might change but across the various editions that remains constant. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you here as well. 5e seems to draw from the 4e rendition of Tharizdun. The Chained God is imprisoned in the Voidharrow only accessible from the lowest point of Carceri the prison plane. While I agree that he is certainly much weaker without the shard, it is still clear that he can reach out of his prison and touch the planes. How is this possible? He is essentially D&D public enemy #1 except only Elder Gods such as Moradin have knowledge of his existence. This is just a theory, but I believe that as long as the shard of evil exists, Tharizdun will be able to use its power to some degree, even if he is locked away in the most maximum security prison plane in existence. That's pretty impressive. While imprisoned the potency of his objects of power have not waned, his artifacts, the Theoparts, Scorpion crown, Crystal in the Ebon Flame, and 333 gems, are all of epic item level. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Demon Lords are notoriously hard to control that has always been true. While Tharizdun was able to marshal most of the abyss, (he put guys as powerful as Miska the Wolf Spider under his thumb) he was unable to convince demons like Demogorgon and Baphomet to follow him, probably because they submit to no will but their own. It should also be noted that engaging in a battle with Demogorgon and other demon lords to gain control over them would leave Tharizdun open to attack by the gods and the obyriths. He was the head honcho in the abyss at the time and simply had too many enemies. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that there is a strange dichotomy there but if you look to his 4e artifacts like the Crystal of EbonFlame and his brief descriptions in the source books his ultimate goal always seems to be complete entropy, no mattter how its accomplished. Quoted from his Dogma "Channel power to the Chained God, so he can break his chains. Retrieve lost relics and shrines to the Chained God. Pursue the obliteration of the world, in anticipation of the Chained God’s liberation." "The very threads of existence must be torn asunder, then burned, then the ashes scattered, until all is nothing and no one exists to remember existence."</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>I would argue the contrary. He started the Cult of Elemental Evil (definitely one of the most famous adventure modules in D&D) although they have been destroyed and reformed a number of times across the editions we are still dealing with them today. Cue PotA 5e. He loosed a new strain of demons (Plague demons, I believe) from his prison in Voidharrow which started an epidemic across the multiverse (Abyssal Plague novels). In 4e when Tharizdun was defeated and imprisoned by the gods it was stated that Asmodeus was his jailor for a brief time. He was still an angel at this point but he abandoned his post after Pazuzu convinced him that his station should be higher. He then flew into the abyss and grabbed a piece of the shard of evil which led to the Ruby Rod of course. The rest is history. Tharizdun remained imprisoned of course, but there might be something to that. Tharizdun is also credited with corrupting the Archfey the Queen of Air and Darkness with one of his artifacts which leads to the eventual formation of the Unseelie Court. </p><p></p><p>My point is he has done so much in the realms and other campaign settings for someone who is supposed to be incarcerated for all eternity, and he continues to touch the planes. No other god has done what Tharizdun has from a prison plane. Not Vecna, Not Iuz, Not Cyric. I can't think of anyone who has been so influential without being able to actually interact with anyone. (Although I could be wrong, I just don't know of anyone). </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Yes I do, but after reading your post my opinion has changed somewhat as well. I'm arguing that Tharizdun should be a higher CR because of his corrupting influence not his brute strength, which as you pointed out, without the shard he is less than the terror that he was at the time of the onset of the dawn war. But if you look to what he has done, the potency of his minions ( Astral Dreadnoughts, Zovuts, The Elder Evil Shothragot, Ghaunadar?) and artifacts I think it is clear that he is still very much a problem for everyone. I don't know how that would work mechanically, but I do concede that lowering his CR is probably for the best. I do think he should have some sort of uber corruption mechanic though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="UnknownDyson, post: 6712627, member: 6801369"] Fair points all in all, I will do my best to make my case. Regarding Tharizdun pre 4e he has always been regarded as a major threat. Back then it seems that he was a deity in the greyhawk campaign setting and existed in almost the same capacity that he does now, except that he wasn't imprisoned. He was the main antagonist of the Gord the Rogue novels by Gary Gygax. He was described as The Anathema, The Undoer, The Ender, and the Father of Elder Evils. So still very much a being of entropy. Tharizdun has also been described by some as a god originating from the far realm. It has been hinted at in some source books that the forgotten realms deity Ghaunadar is an unimprisoned aspect of Tharizdun (I can provide sources if you like). I would agree that he is a schemer you are definitely right there. His masquerading as the Elder Elemental Eye to trick primordials and other elementals is proof of that. But I would argue that his goal among all editions is always the complete annihilation of existence. The means might change but across the various editions that remains constant. I agree with you here as well. 5e seems to draw from the 4e rendition of Tharizdun. The Chained God is imprisoned in the Voidharrow only accessible from the lowest point of Carceri the prison plane. While I agree that he is certainly much weaker without the shard, it is still clear that he can reach out of his prison and touch the planes. How is this possible? He is essentially D&D public enemy #1 except only Elder Gods such as Moradin have knowledge of his existence. This is just a theory, but I believe that as long as the shard of evil exists, Tharizdun will be able to use its power to some degree, even if he is locked away in the most maximum security prison plane in existence. That's pretty impressive. While imprisoned the potency of his objects of power have not waned, his artifacts, the Theoparts, Scorpion crown, Crystal in the Ebon Flame, and 333 gems, are all of epic item level. Demon Lords are notoriously hard to control that has always been true. While Tharizdun was able to marshal most of the abyss, (he put guys as powerful as Miska the Wolf Spider under his thumb) he was unable to convince demons like Demogorgon and Baphomet to follow him, probably because they submit to no will but their own. It should also be noted that engaging in a battle with Demogorgon and other demon lords to gain control over them would leave Tharizdun open to attack by the gods and the obyriths. He was the head honcho in the abyss at the time and simply had too many enemies. I agree that there is a strange dichotomy there but if you look to his 4e artifacts like the Crystal of EbonFlame and his brief descriptions in the source books his ultimate goal always seems to be complete entropy, no mattter how its accomplished. Quoted from his Dogma "Channel power to the Chained God, so he can break his chains. Retrieve lost relics and shrines to the Chained God. Pursue the obliteration of the world, in anticipation of the Chained God’s liberation." "The very threads of existence must be torn asunder, then burned, then the ashes scattered, until all is nothing and no one exists to remember existence." I would argue the contrary. He started the Cult of Elemental Evil (definitely one of the most famous adventure modules in D&D) although they have been destroyed and reformed a number of times across the editions we are still dealing with them today. Cue PotA 5e. He loosed a new strain of demons (Plague demons, I believe) from his prison in Voidharrow which started an epidemic across the multiverse (Abyssal Plague novels). In 4e when Tharizdun was defeated and imprisoned by the gods it was stated that Asmodeus was his jailor for a brief time. He was still an angel at this point but he abandoned his post after Pazuzu convinced him that his station should be higher. He then flew into the abyss and grabbed a piece of the shard of evil which led to the Ruby Rod of course. The rest is history. Tharizdun remained imprisoned of course, but there might be something to that. Tharizdun is also credited with corrupting the Archfey the Queen of Air and Darkness with one of his artifacts which leads to the eventual formation of the Unseelie Court. My point is he has done so much in the realms and other campaign settings for someone who is supposed to be incarcerated for all eternity, and he continues to touch the planes. No other god has done what Tharizdun has from a prison plane. Not Vecna, Not Iuz, Not Cyric. I can't think of anyone who has been so influential without being able to actually interact with anyone. (Although I could be wrong, I just don't know of anyone). Yes I do, but after reading your post my opinion has changed somewhat as well. I'm arguing that Tharizdun should be a higher CR because of his corrupting influence not his brute strength, which as you pointed out, without the shard he is less than the terror that he was at the time of the onset of the dawn war. But if you look to what he has done, the potency of his minions ( Astral Dreadnoughts, Zovuts, The Elder Evil Shothragot, Ghaunadar?) and artifacts I think it is clear that he is still very much a problem for everyone. I don't know how that would work mechanically, but I do concede that lowering his CR is probably for the best. I do think he should have some sort of uber corruption mechanic though. [/QUOTE]
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