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5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8621750" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>You've had replies from both [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] and me suggesting fiction for the aura of unending hunger: the Abyssal ghoul, whose hunger is unending, claws and bites and threatens all nearby enemies. Mechanically we represent this by taxing them a small number of hit points at the start of each of their turns. (The Abyssal Horde Ghoul is a level 26 minion. 5 hp is a very minor amount of damage to a mid-Epic tier PC.)</p><p></p><p>Also, and somewhat as per [USER=2209]@Voadam[/USER]'s post, I don't really follow the difference between <em>I want a fireball</em> - ie a ranged AoE attack based on fire - and <em>I want a horde of ghouls who hunger after the living, slightly wear down every nearby enemy</em> - ie a statblock for minions that have a low-damage aura that reflects their endless hunger.</p><p></p><p>The name of the aura obviously alludes to the Abyssal Ghoul Hungerer, also minions, and found in the MM. So there is an assumption that the GM is familiar with the generally hungering character of ghouls, and can narrate the Horde Ghouls appropriately.</p><p></p><p>It's perhaps also worth noting that, early in 4e's design, swarms tended to have an aura that granted a free attack (see eg the rat swarm and needlefang drake swarm in the MM), whereas later on the designers realised that it was more effective to make those swarm auras autodamage (see eg the Blackfang hyena pack in MV:TttNV). The Abyssal Horde Ghoul aura reflects a similar economy - it is is not worth using time-consuming stochastic resolution to implement what are primarily nuisance/zone-type effects rather than the core threats of an encounter. (This is similar to the economy you advocated upthread for resolution of a 5e fireball attack vs 100 orcs!)</p><p></p><p>Huh? Vancian spells is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a wizard. Turning the undead via a 2d6 roll (OD&D, B/X) or a d20 roll (AD&D) vs a matrix which classifies undead (roughly) by HD is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a cleric. Resolving melee combat via a turn-based action economy with d20 rolls on a to-hit matrix is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a fighter (Chainmail shows that even in the D&D heritage of games there are different ways it might have been done).</p><p></p><p>I had no trouble being "convinced" by 4e's class design.</p><p></p><p>Gandalf can easily be statted up as a low paragon tier invoker.</p><p></p><p>The Hobbits do not fight the Orcs at Amon Hen (they draw their swords, but the Orcs try to capture them; they fight only because Boromir arrives on the scene); are not present at Helm's Deep; and only Pippin is present at Minas Tirith and does not fight. So I don't think they necessarily factor into the equation. If you wanted them in 4e, they would probably be a type of inspiring Warlord build that confers actions and buffs rather than taking their own actions - this would also help generate the mechanical outcome of them not dying despite all the action they <em>do</em> see. Sam would be an adjunct to Frodo's build.</p><p></p><p>In this sentence you seem to confuse the fiction - in which there are Orcs - and the game - in which Orcs are "instantiated" via a stat block.</p><p></p><p>What you mean, I think, is that 5e uses an approach to creature statblocks that does not vary parameters of the statblock to reflect the level of the PCs. That's a technical feature of 5e. You like it. Upthread, [USER=6779717]@Eric V[/USER] suggested that it doesn't work very well for horde/minion encounters.</p><p></p><p>I don't have a personal opinion, as I don't play 5e and don't intend to.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8621750, member: 42582"] You've had replies from both [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] and me suggesting fiction for the aura of unending hunger: the Abyssal ghoul, whose hunger is unending, claws and bites and threatens all nearby enemies. Mechanically we represent this by taxing them a small number of hit points at the start of each of their turns. (The Abyssal Horde Ghoul is a level 26 minion. 5 hp is a very minor amount of damage to a mid-Epic tier PC.) Also, and somewhat as per [USER=2209]@Voadam[/USER]'s post, I don't really follow the difference between [i]I want a fireball[/i] - ie a ranged AoE attack based on fire - and [i]I want a horde of ghouls who hunger after the living, slightly wear down every nearby enemy[/i] - ie a statblock for minions that have a low-damage aura that reflects their endless hunger. The name of the aura obviously alludes to the Abyssal Ghoul Hungerer, also minions, and found in the MM. So there is an assumption that the GM is familiar with the generally hungering character of ghouls, and can narrate the Horde Ghouls appropriately. It's perhaps also worth noting that, early in 4e's design, swarms tended to have an aura that granted a free attack (see eg the rat swarm and needlefang drake swarm in the MM), whereas later on the designers realised that it was more effective to make those swarm auras autodamage (see eg the Blackfang hyena pack in MV:TttNV). The Abyssal Horde Ghoul aura reflects a similar economy - it is is not worth using time-consuming stochastic resolution to implement what are primarily nuisance/zone-type effects rather than the core threats of an encounter. (This is similar to the economy you advocated upthread for resolution of a 5e fireball attack vs 100 orcs!) Huh? Vancian spells is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a wizard. Turning the undead via a 2d6 roll (OD&D, B/X) or a d20 roll (AD&D) vs a matrix which classifies undead (roughly) by HD is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a cleric. Resolving melee combat via a turn-based action economy with d20 rolls on a to-hit matrix is a mechanic that people are "forced" to call a fighter (Chainmail shows that even in the D&D heritage of games there are different ways it might have been done). I had no trouble being "convinced" by 4e's class design. Gandalf can easily be statted up as a low paragon tier invoker. The Hobbits do not fight the Orcs at Amon Hen (they draw their swords, but the Orcs try to capture them; they fight only because Boromir arrives on the scene); are not present at Helm's Deep; and only Pippin is present at Minas Tirith and does not fight. So I don't think they necessarily factor into the equation. If you wanted them in 4e, they would probably be a type of inspiring Warlord build that confers actions and buffs rather than taking their own actions - this would also help generate the mechanical outcome of them not dying despite all the action they [i]do[/i] see. Sam would be an adjunct to Frodo's build. In this sentence you seem to confuse the fiction - in which there are Orcs - and the game - in which Orcs are "instantiated" via a stat block. What you mean, I think, is that 5e uses an approach to creature statblocks that does not vary parameters of the statblock to reflect the level of the PCs. That's a technical feature of 5e. You like it. Upthread, [USER=6779717]@Eric V[/USER] suggested that it doesn't work very well for horde/minion encounters. I don't have a personal opinion, as I don't play 5e and don't intend to. [/QUOTE]
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