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<blockquote data-quote="Khisanth the Ancient" data-source="post: 6959407" data-attributes="member: 11368"><p>Well yeah, it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. Unlimited advancement means a need for tons of abilities, but limited page space (and maybe ideas) led to the ELH just dumping a lot of that into bonus feats and epic feats being a lot of "better class feature X". There was some really cool stuff, but the foundation was somewhat shaky.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe, but I think real benchmarks would have helped the ELH a lot. Maybe not in a 4E tiering way, but some clear sense of "characters can do X at level Y" would have helped out stuff like Epic Spellcasting (awesome ideas, messy implementation) a lot. If they'd sat down and said "A DC X epic spell is roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell plus Y levels of metamagic", we wouldn't have got stuff like epic damage spells being much worse than high level normal ones except at really high DCs.</p><p></p><p>Similarly for the weird lack of integration with the Deities and Demigods rules, and Artifacts not being integrated with Epic Items.... </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe, but IMO that sort of thing needs to be world specific. </p><p></p><p>I mean Athas probably has only a few million people, yet there's a ton of epic characters around (frankly the Order is just ridiculous).</p><p></p><p>Whereas Krynn (at least in the original Dragonlance setting) had very few high level characters and no really 'epic' ones despite having a much larger population... in 1E Dragonlance Raistlin needed special divine exceptions to hit 20th level. </p><p></p><p>And didn't Mystara/Known World have one nation with 1,000 36th level spellcasters or something like that?</p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, that's mixing editions with somewhat different level scaling, but <em>still...</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well IMO all of epic levels would be kind of a transition into either divinity or some other beyond-mortal status. I mean 17th-20th level characters, in 5E terms, are already world shaking legendary figures.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Khisanth the Ancient, post: 6959407, member: 11368"] Well yeah, it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. Unlimited advancement means a need for tons of abilities, but limited page space (and maybe ideas) led to the ELH just dumping a lot of that into bonus feats and epic feats being a lot of "better class feature X". There was some really cool stuff, but the foundation was somewhat shaky. Maybe, but I think real benchmarks would have helped the ELH a lot. Maybe not in a 4E tiering way, but some clear sense of "characters can do X at level Y" would have helped out stuff like Epic Spellcasting (awesome ideas, messy implementation) a lot. If they'd sat down and said "A DC X epic spell is roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell plus Y levels of metamagic", we wouldn't have got stuff like epic damage spells being much worse than high level normal ones except at really high DCs. Similarly for the weird lack of integration with the Deities and Demigods rules, and Artifacts not being integrated with Epic Items.... Maybe, but IMO that sort of thing needs to be world specific. I mean Athas probably has only a few million people, yet there's a ton of epic characters around (frankly the Order is just ridiculous). Whereas Krynn (at least in the original Dragonlance setting) had very few high level characters and no really 'epic' ones despite having a much larger population... in 1E Dragonlance Raistlin needed special divine exceptions to hit 20th level. And didn't Mystara/Known World have one nation with 1,000 36th level spellcasters or something like that? OK, that's mixing editions with somewhat different level scaling, but [I]still...[/I] Well IMO all of epic levels would be kind of a transition into either divinity or some other beyond-mortal status. I mean 17th-20th level characters, in 5E terms, are already world shaking legendary figures. [/QUOTE]
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