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[5e] Newbie DM Questions about Information Given
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<blockquote data-quote="Pauper" data-source="post: 7462498" data-attributes="member: 17607"><p>Let's! Caveat: My main exposure to GUMSHOE has been through Fall of Delta Green, so I'm no expert. But I do feel as though I have a handle on how that game handles the system. If the 'core game' handles things differently, I'm going to be off on my comments. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. But see below.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've seen that too -- the idea that the GM/Handler/Keeper should provide all the information necessary to solve the mystery to the player whose character has the relevant Investigative skill.</p><p></p><p>However, in play, I suspect the 'spend' mechanic is to combat the 'parser problem'. For the benefit of those who weren't around during the Golden Age of Infocom, when CRPGs used to be text-based or point-and-click adventure games, there would inevitably be points in an adventure when you as a player couldn't advance in the story because, even though you had a pretty good idea of what you needed to do to advance the story, you couldn't figure out how to communicate that to the game. For text-based games, you entered commands, and the game's parser interpreted those to determine what information to give you or when to move you to the next stage of the game. But if the parser was looking for a specific command -- 'combine torch with oily rags', for example -- sometimes the game wouldn't recognize similar but seemingly equivalent statements -- 'light oily rags on fire' or 'combine rags with torch' -- and you'd be stuck.</p><p></p><p>My read on the 'spend' mechanic in GUMSHOE is that it's basically a built-in hint system to let players get extra information if the info they get, which is intended to be 'enough', isn't enough to allow them to figure out what the GM/adventure is trying to get them to figure out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm going to disagree <em>slightly</em> on that -- unless Fall of Delta Green is an outlier in the GUMSHOE system, characters generally won't have more than 3 points in an Investigative skill to spend on bonus information. so while it's true that Info spends don't detract from a character's combat ability, it's also true that, for a given Investigative skill, the number of points the character has is only really good for two, maybe three spends in an investigation. Granted, other skills provide their own pool points, and the base skill is always useful to get the baseline of required information, so exhausting one Investigation pool isn't likely to derail an adventure, but the pool is a resource, and part of the challenge of a GUMSHOE game is to manage that resource just as D&D players manage their characters' hit dice and spell slots.</p><p></p><p>Unless you're talking about a very low-level PC in D&D 5E, though, characters have plenty of spell slots to spend on both utility/investigative magic as well as combat (this is especially true when you notice that many players will use their characters' cantrips as the standard tool for combat, resorting to spells only when they need to up the ante), not to mention (as in GUMSHOE, where character creation actually obligates the party having all the Investigative skills before embarking on adventures) that other characters may have their own spell slots to contribute. But, if you do find this a possible source of conflict, then one solution seems obvious -- go ahead and use D&D's ritual casting mechanic as the 'you have the appropriate skill, here's the information you need', and casting the actual spell using a spell slot as the 'you spent points from your Investigation pool, here's the extra information you get' mechanics from GUMSHOE. (As noted in my earlier comment, some players may balk at this, as there isn't support in the D&D rules to treat ritual spells any differently when cast as a ritual versus being cast from a spell slot, so run that by your players before implementing it in your game.)</p><p></p><p>You're right in that resource exhaustion making a character or party less prepared in combat is something to keep track of if you want to use spell slots as a GUMSHOE-like Investigation pool, but I don't see it as an insurmountable problem. If anything, it gives higher-level spellcasters something to do with their lower-level spell slots.</p><p></p><p>--</p><p>Pauper</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pauper, post: 7462498, member: 17607"] Let's! Caveat: My main exposure to GUMSHOE has been through Fall of Delta Green, so I'm no expert. But I do feel as though I have a handle on how that game handles the system. If the 'core game' handles things differently, I'm going to be off on my comments. Agreed. But see below. I've seen that too -- the idea that the GM/Handler/Keeper should provide all the information necessary to solve the mystery to the player whose character has the relevant Investigative skill. However, in play, I suspect the 'spend' mechanic is to combat the 'parser problem'. For the benefit of those who weren't around during the Golden Age of Infocom, when CRPGs used to be text-based or point-and-click adventure games, there would inevitably be points in an adventure when you as a player couldn't advance in the story because, even though you had a pretty good idea of what you needed to do to advance the story, you couldn't figure out how to communicate that to the game. For text-based games, you entered commands, and the game's parser interpreted those to determine what information to give you or when to move you to the next stage of the game. But if the parser was looking for a specific command -- 'combine torch with oily rags', for example -- sometimes the game wouldn't recognize similar but seemingly equivalent statements -- 'light oily rags on fire' or 'combine rags with torch' -- and you'd be stuck. My read on the 'spend' mechanic in GUMSHOE is that it's basically a built-in hint system to let players get extra information if the info they get, which is intended to be 'enough', isn't enough to allow them to figure out what the GM/adventure is trying to get them to figure out. I'm going to disagree [i]slightly[/i] on that -- unless Fall of Delta Green is an outlier in the GUMSHOE system, characters generally won't have more than 3 points in an Investigative skill to spend on bonus information. so while it's true that Info spends don't detract from a character's combat ability, it's also true that, for a given Investigative skill, the number of points the character has is only really good for two, maybe three spends in an investigation. Granted, other skills provide their own pool points, and the base skill is always useful to get the baseline of required information, so exhausting one Investigation pool isn't likely to derail an adventure, but the pool is a resource, and part of the challenge of a GUMSHOE game is to manage that resource just as D&D players manage their characters' hit dice and spell slots. Unless you're talking about a very low-level PC in D&D 5E, though, characters have plenty of spell slots to spend on both utility/investigative magic as well as combat (this is especially true when you notice that many players will use their characters' cantrips as the standard tool for combat, resorting to spells only when they need to up the ante), not to mention (as in GUMSHOE, where character creation actually obligates the party having all the Investigative skills before embarking on adventures) that other characters may have their own spell slots to contribute. But, if you do find this a possible source of conflict, then one solution seems obvious -- go ahead and use D&D's ritual casting mechanic as the 'you have the appropriate skill, here's the information you need', and casting the actual spell using a spell slot as the 'you spent points from your Investigation pool, here's the extra information you get' mechanics from GUMSHOE. (As noted in my earlier comment, some players may balk at this, as there isn't support in the D&D rules to treat ritual spells any differently when cast as a ritual versus being cast from a spell slot, so run that by your players before implementing it in your game.) You're right in that resource exhaustion making a character or party less prepared in combat is something to keep track of if you want to use spell slots as a GUMSHOE-like Investigation pool, but I don't see it as an insurmountable problem. If anything, it gives higher-level spellcasters something to do with their lower-level spell slots. -- Pauper [/QUOTE]
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