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5E skills and the Perception vs Stealth imbalance
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6987584" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Yes, I'm talking about two things. </p><p></p><p>I dislike how guards can't actually do anything before the ambush is sprung (why post guards?).</p><p></p><p>I dislike how sneaky gits can't ambush the heroes.</p><p></p><p>The way to reconcile these two wishes must be for any Stealth rules to specifically address the outcome where the ambush is discovered "in time", and at the same time meaningfully distinguish between good and bad sneakers.</p><p></p><p>Since I completely agree all of this should be resolved by a single round of rolling, it's evident the current Stealth rules doesn't meet my expectations.</p><p></p><p>I need the Stealth rules to resolve to a set of specific outcomes:</p><p>a) the guard becomes aware of the approaching enemy well in advance. This may assume the guard is a roving ranger that's actively canvassing the local area for intruders (think Strider doubling back to camp to warn the Hobbits, rather than the unimaginative and stationary guard). Of course what the guard actually does is up to her - she might escape the area and leave her "allies" to the mercy of the attackers... or she might decide to pick off all attackers one by one by herself for what I know!</p><p>b) the guard becomes aware of the approaching enemy with at least a full round for everyone to spare</p><p>c) the guard only prevents himself to be surprised</p><p>d) the guard fails</p><p></p><p>Stealthy intruders should have a decent chance of achieving c or d. </p><p>Perceptive guards should have a decent chance of achieving a or b.</p><p></p><p>The solution is obvious. While the difference between a perceptive and non-perceptive guard is already sufficient (+0 to +10 merely taking ability + proficiency into account), the difference between a sneaky and non-sneaky monster certainly isn't. </p><p></p><p>Theoretically, monsters can too have +5 in ability and +5 in proficiency, but exceedingly few monsters have that (Invisible Stalkers and Drow Elite Warriors are two examples of Stealth +10; but in both cases I would assume this is achieved only by "Stealth Expertise").</p><p></p><p>The Stealth scores of MM statblocks doesn't explain how each bonus is calculated, but let's look at a few:</p><p></p><p>Bugbear Stealth +6. As far as I can see, this can only be achieved by giving the Bugbear "Stealth Expertise". Dexterity +2, Proficiency +2 and Proficiency again +2 =+6. While I appreciate the effort of expertise, the practical results aren't that distinctive with a proficiency bonus of only +2.</p><p></p><p>Shadow Demon +7. Even when you're an embodiment of "stealth" you don't get more than +7?!</p><p></p><p>Bullywug +3 but advantage. But why oh why qualify the "Swamp camouflage" ability to only hide checks and not move silently checks?</p><p></p><p>Owl +3</p><p></p><p>Wolf +4</p><p></p><p>I wouldn't hesitate for a second in giving all of these a +4 racial modifier each.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 6987584, member: 12731"] Yes, I'm talking about two things. I dislike how guards can't actually do anything before the ambush is sprung (why post guards?). I dislike how sneaky gits can't ambush the heroes. The way to reconcile these two wishes must be for any Stealth rules to specifically address the outcome where the ambush is discovered "in time", and at the same time meaningfully distinguish between good and bad sneakers. Since I completely agree all of this should be resolved by a single round of rolling, it's evident the current Stealth rules doesn't meet my expectations. I need the Stealth rules to resolve to a set of specific outcomes: a) the guard becomes aware of the approaching enemy well in advance. This may assume the guard is a roving ranger that's actively canvassing the local area for intruders (think Strider doubling back to camp to warn the Hobbits, rather than the unimaginative and stationary guard). Of course what the guard actually does is up to her - she might escape the area and leave her "allies" to the mercy of the attackers... or she might decide to pick off all attackers one by one by herself for what I know! b) the guard becomes aware of the approaching enemy with at least a full round for everyone to spare c) the guard only prevents himself to be surprised d) the guard fails Stealthy intruders should have a decent chance of achieving c or d. Perceptive guards should have a decent chance of achieving a or b. The solution is obvious. While the difference between a perceptive and non-perceptive guard is already sufficient (+0 to +10 merely taking ability + proficiency into account), the difference between a sneaky and non-sneaky monster certainly isn't. Theoretically, monsters can too have +5 in ability and +5 in proficiency, but exceedingly few monsters have that (Invisible Stalkers and Drow Elite Warriors are two examples of Stealth +10; but in both cases I would assume this is achieved only by "Stealth Expertise"). The Stealth scores of MM statblocks doesn't explain how each bonus is calculated, but let's look at a few: Bugbear Stealth +6. As far as I can see, this can only be achieved by giving the Bugbear "Stealth Expertise". Dexterity +2, Proficiency +2 and Proficiency again +2 =+6. While I appreciate the effort of expertise, the practical results aren't that distinctive with a proficiency bonus of only +2. Shadow Demon +7. Even when you're an embodiment of "stealth" you don't get more than +7?! Bullywug +3 but advantage. But why oh why qualify the "Swamp camouflage" ability to only hide checks and not move silently checks? Owl +3 Wolf +4 I wouldn't hesitate for a second in giving all of these a +4 racial modifier each. [/QUOTE]
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