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5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8781536" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>I mean, that's been a consistent issue with all versions of D&D outside of BECMI/RC, hasn't it? No AD&D game lets you actually fight gods. Trying to blame Zeb Cook is simply re-writing history with petty* nonsense. At best you can fight avatars. Whether it's a problem or merely an "issue" is in the court of the players. Personally outside of the traditional JRPG ending of "LETS KILL GOD!" (which I first really experienced in the amazing Guardian Heroes, where one of the paths takes you directly to that), I don't find the idea of fighting the gods to be particularly interesting, especially as it means that, essentially, they were never gods to start with in any meaningful sense, just exceptionally powerful supernatural beings.</p><p></p><p>And that's exactly the case in Marvel.</p><p></p><p>Thor is a "god" but he's clearly not a god in any true sense. He doesn't answer prayers or offerings. He's nowhere omniscient or omnipotent. He can't really even grant blessings to a mass of followers. So it makes sense for him to get in actual physical scuffles with people. The same is true even up to Celestials, which are the most god-like beings seemingly left in the Marvel universe (the creator-god having departed).</p><p></p><p>I feel like if you want to fight gods, you need a scenario more like that of Supernatural than "statting up". Again, AD&D has never statted up actual gods for the kill (well, certainly not in 2/3/4/5E, 1E was at most arguable), it statted up avatars. Anyway in Supernatural, where, spoiler alert on a 15+ year old show (admittedly this bit is more recent), they end up in conflict with God (the Biblical God!), the conflict has to be much more about working out ways to mess with that being and somehow bring it down to their level, rather than just BIG NUMBERS!!!!!! which is what you seem to want. Rather than dragging a god down to situations where mortals could fight it, you just seem to want to make it so no god could have stats which a party of competent 20th-level adventurers couldn't take down. At which point I say - that's not a god in any meaningful sense of the word, it's merely a powerful supernatural being. Certainly if 4-5 competent level 20s can drop you in a straight fight (or even an ambush, but one where you're not restrained/powerless), you're just a fairly powerful supernatural being. With the LoP specifically, if four level 20s could drop her, then four to eight Balors or the like could drop her. That would make her incredibly vulnerable and mean Sigil's rulership would likely get overthrown on a virtually daily basis. The Blood War and Upper-Lower planar wars would rage through Sigil 24-7.</p><p></p><p>* = It's particularly petty in the LoP's case because she hasn't done anything to mess with you, unlike many gods.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8781536, member: 18"] I mean, that's been a consistent issue with all versions of D&D outside of BECMI/RC, hasn't it? No AD&D game lets you actually fight gods. Trying to blame Zeb Cook is simply re-writing history with petty* nonsense. At best you can fight avatars. Whether it's a problem or merely an "issue" is in the court of the players. Personally outside of the traditional JRPG ending of "LETS KILL GOD!" (which I first really experienced in the amazing Guardian Heroes, where one of the paths takes you directly to that), I don't find the idea of fighting the gods to be particularly interesting, especially as it means that, essentially, they were never gods to start with in any meaningful sense, just exceptionally powerful supernatural beings. And that's exactly the case in Marvel. Thor is a "god" but he's clearly not a god in any true sense. He doesn't answer prayers or offerings. He's nowhere omniscient or omnipotent. He can't really even grant blessings to a mass of followers. So it makes sense for him to get in actual physical scuffles with people. The same is true even up to Celestials, which are the most god-like beings seemingly left in the Marvel universe (the creator-god having departed). I feel like if you want to fight gods, you need a scenario more like that of Supernatural than "statting up". Again, AD&D has never statted up actual gods for the kill (well, certainly not in 2/3/4/5E, 1E was at most arguable), it statted up avatars. Anyway in Supernatural, where, spoiler alert on a 15+ year old show (admittedly this bit is more recent), they end up in conflict with God (the Biblical God!), the conflict has to be much more about working out ways to mess with that being and somehow bring it down to their level, rather than just BIG NUMBERS!!!!!! which is what you seem to want. Rather than dragging a god down to situations where mortals could fight it, you just seem to want to make it so no god could have stats which a party of competent 20th-level adventurers couldn't take down. At which point I say - that's not a god in any meaningful sense of the word, it's merely a powerful supernatural being. Certainly if 4-5 competent level 20s can drop you in a straight fight (or even an ambush, but one where you're not restrained/powerless), you're just a fairly powerful supernatural being. With the LoP specifically, if four level 20s could drop her, then four to eight Balors or the like could drop her. That would make her incredibly vulnerable and mean Sigil's rulership would likely get overthrown on a virtually daily basis. The Blood War and Upper-Lower planar wars would rage through Sigil 24-7. * = It's particularly petty in the LoP's case because she hasn't done anything to mess with you, unlike many gods. [/QUOTE]
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