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5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her
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<blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 8781766" data-attributes="member: 6799660"><p><em>"This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?"</em> -Timothy Kask, <em>Gods, Demigods and Heroes</em>, original D&D supplement IV, forward (1976)</p><p></p><p>This did not start with Cook. D&D started with stats for gods to set an upward bound to character power. An attempt to say, in effect, 'if you have PCs who look like this, you might be in a giveaway campaign.' People immediately ignored that intent and used the book as an extension of the Monster Manual. Since then, the game has been wildly inconsistent on the matter. In AD&D you were explicitly supposed to battle Lolth in Queen of the Demonweb pits, and it doesn't specifically say that it is just an avatar (but still a boss fight for a level 10-14 adventure), but at other times there still was an aesthetic of thinking you could face a god as being laughable. Dragonlance came along and (in the novelizations) explicitly had the 'turned to the dark side' character attempting to take on the gods (and, if a brief glimpse of an alternate future is to be believed, would have succeeded but for want of a single moment of moral clarity). I believe the game setting had some cannonical rules about how to defeat gods temporarily or permanently, which I think made it into the 2e rules. The BECMI set had the final (rule-encoded) tier of play being playing <u><em>as</em></u> sorta-gods ('Immortals' which sometimes seem weaker than AD&D gods, but also sometimes can do things even greater AD&D gods can't easily do). </p><p></p><p>What I'm saying is that D&D hasn't had a consistent voice on the matter into which Cook threw a spanner in 2E AD&D, as there was no consistency to disrupt.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Willie the Duck, post: 8781766, member: 6799660"] [I]"This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?"[/I] -Timothy Kask, [I]Gods, Demigods and Heroes[/I], original D&D supplement IV, forward (1976) This did not start with Cook. D&D started with stats for gods to set an upward bound to character power. An attempt to say, in effect, 'if you have PCs who look like this, you might be in a giveaway campaign.' People immediately ignored that intent and used the book as an extension of the Monster Manual. Since then, the game has been wildly inconsistent on the matter. In AD&D you were explicitly supposed to battle Lolth in Queen of the Demonweb pits, and it doesn't specifically say that it is just an avatar (but still a boss fight for a level 10-14 adventure), but at other times there still was an aesthetic of thinking you could face a god as being laughable. Dragonlance came along and (in the novelizations) explicitly had the 'turned to the dark side' character attempting to take on the gods (and, if a brief glimpse of an alternate future is to be believed, would have succeeded but for want of a single moment of moral clarity). I believe the game setting had some cannonical rules about how to defeat gods temporarily or permanently, which I think made it into the 2e rules. The BECMI set had the final (rule-encoded) tier of play being playing [U][I]as[/I][/U] sorta-gods ('Immortals' which sometimes seem weaker than AD&D gods, but also sometimes can do things even greater AD&D gods can't easily do). What I'm saying is that D&D hasn't had a consistent voice on the matter into which Cook threw a spanner in 2E AD&D, as there was no consistency to disrupt. [/QUOTE]
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