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5th Edition -- Caster Rule, Martials Drool?
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6364813" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I do not want magic all of the time.</p><p></p><p>I want magic (on average) at least once per encounter. And it does not have to be the strongest magic the PC has, just something which is not a cantrip. As a player of a wizard, I am taking the low hit points and low AC and other risks so THAT I can nova. Not so that most of the time and I twittle my thumbs and cast a cantrip.</p><p></p><p>The 4th level wizard casting sleep and putting one Gnoll to sleep is totally fine. The fighter still shines as he kills another Gnoll and damages a third. If the wizard takes out one with Sleep and the fighter takes one out with damage, how is this not the fighter being amazing?</p><p></p><p>At 4th level, this IS the wizard casting a spell better than a melee attack because it took a foe out (at least until an NPC wakes up that foe and then it was purely defensive and ate up one or more NPC actions).</p><p></p><p>But the wizard cannot cast Sleep every encounter. Even with 7 total spells a day (and I picked level 4 because it has the most highest and second highest level spells, other levels have fewer), he might not manage this. He might put up Mage Armor. He might get attacked and put up Shield. He might do an Identify, or in a non-combat situation do a Charm Person. Or cast Knock to get past a locked door the rogue couldn't pick. The wizard could roll 12 total on the 5D8 and it affects nobody cause the current fight is Orcs with 15 hit points. Or, the PCs might be fighting 6 HD creatures and even a good roll doesn't affect them. Or he might affect 2 mook Goblins while the 3 Orcs are unaffected. Although Sleep is powerful, very few PC wizards will ever get 7 of them that actually work in a given day unless they are higher level (with more overall spells) and fighting mooks.</p><p></p><p>And Sleep only affects a lot of foes and outright wins the encounter if the foes are mooks. Otherwise, it tends to take out 2 foes at most and often just one. The human 1st level ranger with Sharpshooter can do that nearly every other round against a lot of different foes. If the foes are mooks and I am the player of the fighter, I WANT the wizard to sleep 4 of them so that we can move on to a real encounter. Mook fights are boring unless there are a ton of them in the fight (and then it becomes a real challenge).</p><p></p><p></p><p>And another thing, the wizard using Fireball to seriously damage or kill multiple foes is a good thing in my mind. I want 6-8 actually difficult encounters, not 6-8 against 5 mooks each. If the 5th level wizard partially wipes out 3 real encounters, that's 1.5 more encounters per day overall just from 3 spells. Sure, the wizard SHINES in those 3 encounters, but he starts running out of good things to do in the other 3 -5 encounters whereas the fighter shines in most of those encounters. The fighter shines more in the 3-5 non-Fireball encounters than in the 3 Fireball encounters, but he still shines. Ditto for the cleric that does not need to heal or buff much in those 3 encounters. The cleric can cast more spells per encounter in the other 3-5 encounters. Same with the druid. Same with the paladin.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a party cooperative thing when one PC novas, not a party competition thing. Every PC gets multiple chances per day to shine. I'm not quite sure why that is difficult to understand and there is this "your PC can do this, but mine cannot" attitude. It's a cooperative party endeavor.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 6364813, member: 2011"] I do not want magic all of the time. I want magic (on average) at least once per encounter. And it does not have to be the strongest magic the PC has, just something which is not a cantrip. As a player of a wizard, I am taking the low hit points and low AC and other risks so THAT I can nova. Not so that most of the time and I twittle my thumbs and cast a cantrip. The 4th level wizard casting sleep and putting one Gnoll to sleep is totally fine. The fighter still shines as he kills another Gnoll and damages a third. If the wizard takes out one with Sleep and the fighter takes one out with damage, how is this not the fighter being amazing? At 4th level, this IS the wizard casting a spell better than a melee attack because it took a foe out (at least until an NPC wakes up that foe and then it was purely defensive and ate up one or more NPC actions). But the wizard cannot cast Sleep every encounter. Even with 7 total spells a day (and I picked level 4 because it has the most highest and second highest level spells, other levels have fewer), he might not manage this. He might put up Mage Armor. He might get attacked and put up Shield. He might do an Identify, or in a non-combat situation do a Charm Person. Or cast Knock to get past a locked door the rogue couldn't pick. The wizard could roll 12 total on the 5D8 and it affects nobody cause the current fight is Orcs with 15 hit points. Or, the PCs might be fighting 6 HD creatures and even a good roll doesn't affect them. Or he might affect 2 mook Goblins while the 3 Orcs are unaffected. Although Sleep is powerful, very few PC wizards will ever get 7 of them that actually work in a given day unless they are higher level (with more overall spells) and fighting mooks. And Sleep only affects a lot of foes and outright wins the encounter if the foes are mooks. Otherwise, it tends to take out 2 foes at most and often just one. The human 1st level ranger with Sharpshooter can do that nearly every other round against a lot of different foes. If the foes are mooks and I am the player of the fighter, I WANT the wizard to sleep 4 of them so that we can move on to a real encounter. Mook fights are boring unless there are a ton of them in the fight (and then it becomes a real challenge). And another thing, the wizard using Fireball to seriously damage or kill multiple foes is a good thing in my mind. I want 6-8 actually difficult encounters, not 6-8 against 5 mooks each. If the 5th level wizard partially wipes out 3 real encounters, that's 1.5 more encounters per day overall just from 3 spells. Sure, the wizard SHINES in those 3 encounters, but he starts running out of good things to do in the other 3 -5 encounters whereas the fighter shines in most of those encounters. The fighter shines more in the 3-5 non-Fireball encounters than in the 3 Fireball encounters, but he still shines. Ditto for the cleric that does not need to heal or buff much in those 3 encounters. The cleric can cast more spells per encounter in the other 3-5 encounters. Same with the druid. Same with the paladin. It's a party cooperative thing when one PC novas, not a party competition thing. Every PC gets multiple chances per day to shine. I'm not quite sure why that is difficult to understand and there is this "your PC can do this, but mine cannot" attitude. It's a cooperative party endeavor. [/QUOTE]
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