Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5th Edition Modern or Near Future Rules
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 7993334" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Sure, but that's only <em>one </em>of the problems. HP don't represent being "stabbed through the heart", anyway, which is part of the issue. </p><p></p><p>With a knife, it's very plausible to say you got a shallow cut or gash for that 4 HP you took, or they stabbed your chain repeatedly and couldn't get through but you're going to have bruises and are a bit winded. With a 7.62mm rifle bullet? Um. You basically end up getting "Tintin'd" constantly "Oh the bullet just grazed me. Oh the bullet just grazed me. Oh the bullet just grazed me." and so on, and it's a lot inherently sillier than melee weapons which are easier to explain. If they're wearing armour, it's like the plates end up being bullet-magnets as suddenly they keep being hit and causing bruises.</p><p></p><p>Modern firearms just an absolute ton of problems <em>on top of </em>the existing problems D&D has with immersion-breaking stuff. And whilst YMMV, for my money, they smash that immersion to pieces.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Have you actually tried action movies (not SF movies or Star Wars, note) in a version of D&D, or even a close relative? Because I have. I've tried a bunch of systems. And the results are awful. This is because of a few things:</p><p></p><p>1) AC derived from DEX and armour and so on doesn't work in action movies.</p><p></p><p>2) D&D doesn't, by default, have any kind of "that didn't happen" mechanism to prevent one-shots and so on (whereas most good action movie RPGs do).</p><p></p><p>3) Rising HP with levels makes little sense in an action movie or action-TV scenario. PCs should start with a lot of HP-equivalent.</p><p></p><p>4) HP which assume you get hit make zero sense in an action-movie scenario in most cases. VP/WP can work though it has a whole bunch of problems of its own.</p><p></p><p>5) Guns firing a single time (even if it is supposedly multiple times) per attack just raises tons of questions and feels very un-action-movie-esque.</p><p></p><p>6) Guns doing more damage than melee doesn't make any sense at all in an action-movie context, because melee is extremely effective in virtually all action movies.</p><p></p><p>Can you fix all this? Maybe, but you're building something pretty far from 5E, as I said.</p><p></p><p>AC could derive from being a protagonist and so on, rather than armour.</p><p></p><p>You could add a whole subsystem which let players say "Ok I didn't get shot in the head!".</p><p></p><p>You could start with like 30+ HP and not have them go up much, if at all (instead the subsystem above could increase).</p><p></p><p>You can replace HP with something like VP/WP (a system with problems of it's own), but history relates that this is not an easy thing to get right. At the very least you probably need rules equivalent to CDGs for kill-shots and the like. Which may involve a whole separate subsystem and economy of "kill points" or whatever.</p><p></p><p>You could make all firearms have multiple attacks but whatever way you do this its going to be tricky to make work with 5E's action economy, and it's likely to mean you end up simulating on specific subset of action movies, rather than "most" action movies (which is fine, but you need to be clear about it).</p><p></p><p>You can make guns not do more damage than melee, but the whole notion of damage gets pretty fraught and complicated even when compared to D&D (which already has enough problems with "meat points" and so on).</p><p></p><p>And maybe you end up with a game that has a Proficiency Bonus, Advantage/Disadvantage, six stats, and uses d20 rolls + stat + proficiency as the main mechanic, but it's sure not going to be 5E or remotely 5E compatible.</p><p></p><p>And some game which didn't even try to do all this nonsense, but had a fundamentally different mechanic is just going to laugh at this house of cards you've built, because why not use the right tool for the job?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 7993334, member: 18"] Sure, but that's only [I]one [/I]of the problems. HP don't represent being "stabbed through the heart", anyway, which is part of the issue. With a knife, it's very plausible to say you got a shallow cut or gash for that 4 HP you took, or they stabbed your chain repeatedly and couldn't get through but you're going to have bruises and are a bit winded. With a 7.62mm rifle bullet? Um. You basically end up getting "Tintin'd" constantly "Oh the bullet just grazed me. Oh the bullet just grazed me. Oh the bullet just grazed me." and so on, and it's a lot inherently sillier than melee weapons which are easier to explain. If they're wearing armour, it's like the plates end up being bullet-magnets as suddenly they keep being hit and causing bruises. Modern firearms just an absolute ton of problems [I]on top of [/I]the existing problems D&D has with immersion-breaking stuff. And whilst YMMV, for my money, they smash that immersion to pieces. Have you actually tried action movies (not SF movies or Star Wars, note) in a version of D&D, or even a close relative? Because I have. I've tried a bunch of systems. And the results are awful. This is because of a few things: 1) AC derived from DEX and armour and so on doesn't work in action movies. 2) D&D doesn't, by default, have any kind of "that didn't happen" mechanism to prevent one-shots and so on (whereas most good action movie RPGs do). 3) Rising HP with levels makes little sense in an action movie or action-TV scenario. PCs should start with a lot of HP-equivalent. 4) HP which assume you get hit make zero sense in an action-movie scenario in most cases. VP/WP can work though it has a whole bunch of problems of its own. 5) Guns firing a single time (even if it is supposedly multiple times) per attack just raises tons of questions and feels very un-action-movie-esque. 6) Guns doing more damage than melee doesn't make any sense at all in an action-movie context, because melee is extremely effective in virtually all action movies. Can you fix all this? Maybe, but you're building something pretty far from 5E, as I said. AC could derive from being a protagonist and so on, rather than armour. You could add a whole subsystem which let players say "Ok I didn't get shot in the head!". You could start with like 30+ HP and not have them go up much, if at all (instead the subsystem above could increase). You can replace HP with something like VP/WP (a system with problems of it's own), but history relates that this is not an easy thing to get right. At the very least you probably need rules equivalent to CDGs for kill-shots and the like. Which may involve a whole separate subsystem and economy of "kill points" or whatever. You could make all firearms have multiple attacks but whatever way you do this its going to be tricky to make work with 5E's action economy, and it's likely to mean you end up simulating on specific subset of action movies, rather than "most" action movies (which is fine, but you need to be clear about it). You can make guns not do more damage than melee, but the whole notion of damage gets pretty fraught and complicated even when compared to D&D (which already has enough problems with "meat points" and so on). And maybe you end up with a game that has a Proficiency Bonus, Advantage/Disadvantage, six stats, and uses d20 rolls + stat + proficiency as the main mechanic, but it's sure not going to be 5E or remotely 5E compatible. And some game which didn't even try to do all this nonsense, but had a fundamentally different mechanic is just going to laugh at this house of cards you've built, because why not use the right tool for the job? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5th Edition Modern or Near Future Rules
Top