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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7456641" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Indeed. It just convinces me that we have an extremely different understanding of the world - and I think yours appears to derive more from historic Dungeons & Dragons rules rather than from the real world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has already pointed out a few that are metagame and explicitly pointed out as such by Gygax.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why do you care how other people have fun if it doesn't directly impact yours? Why do you want to force their understanding of the world to match yours like this?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I consider this pair of sentences to be far more telling than you intended it to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, obviously. If it was the character's decision alone then we wouldn't bother rolling attack rolls. We'd just say it hit. </p><p></p><p>But if you watch <em>any</em> combat sport from boxing to MMA to professional wrestling (and yes I know wrestling is fake) you'll find that the pace of the fight varies. You'll find that there are times when the fighters are probing each other. You'll find there are times when they are times when they are taking advantage of mistakes. And you'll find there are times when they either pick up the pace, pull tricks, or go in with extra force to try to force an opening.</p><p></p><p>By not having some sort of mechanics this way you're denying me the opportunities to do any of these except go in in neutral, and wait to find a mistake to take advantage of.</p><p></p><p>As for saving energy across combat, if you listen to marathon runners it takes them about a day per mile to recover. If you think exerting yourself hard (because you are fighting for your life and still trying to raise the tempo) is something you can do arbitrarily often and it just takes a few minutes of rest to recover from every single time I don't know what to tell you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And this is of course entirely independent of exerting yourself harder, raising the pace of the fight to try to force an opening and either end it faster or change the way it is going.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Once again if you could automatically succeed there would be no reason for the to hit roll.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hit point loss on the other hand represents absolutely nothing at all. Someone is as physically capable of everything except taking damage at 1hp as they are at full hp. If it were anything to do with injury of any sort this would not be the case. So unless hit points are magical force fields then hit point mechanics are pure, raw metagame.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes <em>of course</em> I can raise the tempo or force of a fight, trying to force openings rather than exchanging blows and probing. And it absolutely feels right when I want to do this that it should have no mechanical impact at all.</p><p></p><p>Without the ability to try to control the pace of a fight and mechanics that back me up on this as mechanics are a big part of my standard interface with the game world I find it literally impossible to immerse in the role of fighter who is anything other than the sort of fighter that is less intelligent than his warhorse (and played more normally like a stereotypical barbarian). Fighting is what fighters are meant to be good at - and that goes beyond just swinging a sword with precision and accuracy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7456641, member: 87792"] Indeed. It just convinces me that we have an extremely different understanding of the world - and I think yours appears to derive more from historic Dungeons & Dragons rules rather than from the real world. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has already pointed out a few that are metagame and explicitly pointed out as such by Gygax. Why do you care how other people have fun if it doesn't directly impact yours? Why do you want to force their understanding of the world to match yours like this? I consider this pair of sentences to be far more telling than you intended it to be. Well, obviously. If it was the character's decision alone then we wouldn't bother rolling attack rolls. We'd just say it hit. But if you watch [I]any[/I] combat sport from boxing to MMA to professional wrestling (and yes I know wrestling is fake) you'll find that the pace of the fight varies. You'll find that there are times when the fighters are probing each other. You'll find there are times when they are times when they are taking advantage of mistakes. And you'll find there are times when they either pick up the pace, pull tricks, or go in with extra force to try to force an opening. By not having some sort of mechanics this way you're denying me the opportunities to do any of these except go in in neutral, and wait to find a mistake to take advantage of. As for saving energy across combat, if you listen to marathon runners it takes them about a day per mile to recover. If you think exerting yourself hard (because you are fighting for your life and still trying to raise the tempo) is something you can do arbitrarily often and it just takes a few minutes of rest to recover from every single time I don't know what to tell you. And this is of course entirely independent of exerting yourself harder, raising the pace of the fight to try to force an opening and either end it faster or change the way it is going. Once again if you could automatically succeed there would be no reason for the to hit roll. Hit point loss on the other hand represents absolutely nothing at all. Someone is as physically capable of everything except taking damage at 1hp as they are at full hp. If it were anything to do with injury of any sort this would not be the case. So unless hit points are magical force fields then hit point mechanics are pure, raw metagame. Yes [I]of course[/I] I can raise the tempo or force of a fight, trying to force openings rather than exchanging blows and probing. And it absolutely feels right when I want to do this that it should have no mechanical impact at all. Without the ability to try to control the pace of a fight and mechanics that back me up on this as mechanics are a big part of my standard interface with the game world I find it literally impossible to immerse in the role of fighter who is anything other than the sort of fighter that is less intelligent than his warhorse (and played more normally like a stereotypical barbarian). Fighting is what fighters are meant to be good at - and that goes beyond just swinging a sword with precision and accuracy. [/QUOTE]
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