Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7459168" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>My take-away reading was the opposite here, though we likely refer to the same phenomenon. For me, this system makes world creation necessary - as in the process necessarily transpires - because it partially happens through the character creation process via playbooks. The major strength of this system is that it 1) alleviates some of the world-creation process from the GM, 2) it connects PCs to other PCs and NPCs through character creation, and 3) this process can also be used for the purpose of adventure creation in scenario packs. I get that some grognard GMs may buckle at this idea - "I am perfect GM worldbuilder and I have perfect group. We were doing this already! So this system is stupid." - but I have found that it makes for interesting fun from the perspective of discovery from the part of the GM. </p><p></p><p>You can still make the world or setting, but the character creation process helps plug characters into that fairly easily. You are simply building around a tavern, which could be in a village or city. The players will create an NPC or location or two. And the GM will mostly be filling out the rest. So unless you are an autocratic control freak, then you are effectively losing minimal control over world creation. </p><p></p><p>It has a price of $8 for the pdf on DriveThruRPG (and Further Afield at $5) plus a lot of free or pay-what-you-want content so it's far from a steep entry point. </p><p></p><p>I would say that the use of <strong>Playbooks</strong> is the big modern innovator. Though they are implemented differently in BtW from Powered by the Apocalypse-inspired games (e.g., Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark) the playbooks are mostly about providing players with an easy-access character concept who is not just a pre-gen. Your rolls expand your backstory and stats at the same time. So it is OSR "roll to discover your character" meets New School "plug-n-play". </p><p></p><p>But the playbooks are <em>optional</em>. (And this point also applies to your earlier bit on world creation.) There are rules for just rolling stats and sticking with the basic classes as written. So you can stick with the game-as-written but also take out everything else you don't like. There are also rules for using the 3e+ three saving throws instead. Super hackable game. </p><p></p><p><strong>Freeform Skill System:</strong> There is not a set skill list. Players can pick their own "skills." Skills and ability checks operate as roll-under ability score to succeed, with skills raising your circumstantial ability score by +2 or +4 when making the relevant check. Actually most d20 mechanics are roll-under-ability score except saving throws and attack rolls. </p><p></p><p>Someone on the BtW Google+ community also made a <a href="https://plus.google.com/113531853537076758150/posts/CLFKh3nap1g" target="_blank">"Black Hack" of BtW</a> which simplifies the system even more, such as turning the five saving throws and attack rolls into simple roll-under ability checks, but it also uses advantage/disadvantage mechanics. </p><p></p><p>It's as metagame as creating a new character with a backstory or leveling up in D&D. It mostly happens at character creation or between sessions. It is the GM who narrates the framing of scenes and the world with the players reacting. If something does not exist in the world, then the GM can say "no, that doesn't exist" or "no, that's not possible." </p><p></p><p>In contrast, players can make up stuff about the world in Fate during play, but IME this mostly amounts to the players invoking a character aspect and being like "I know a guy from my time as part of [my aspect here]," "I know a way into this place because my time [insert aspect here]," or "Didn't you know? I learned to speak this language due to [aspect]." But I find that this process mostly happens in a character-facing way that does not come across as metagaming in the context of play. It's about the player asserting who their character is in the world and the character being proactive in the world. </p><p></p><p>Let's take for example "I know a guy." How would this be potentially handled outside of Fate? The GM will likely say something akin to "you have not established knowing this person in your backstory, so they do not exist." The GM may also say, "We can discuss your backstory outside of play and decide then (but no)." Or the player may not be the one saying it, but the GM just tells the player, "you know a guy," which would be railroading the PCs to a set NPC. Or the PC may even say, "Yeah, but why or how do I know that guy? I never established that with you either." This can be absolutely frustrating from a player perspective because in their own head space of who the character is and their backstory, they absolutely would "know a guy for that" or have someone they could turn to in the world. This is often a roadblock I have witnessed that takes the player out of their character immersion. </p><p></p><p>But here is the thing that I like about the Fate system here as a GM: 1) the player characters are being proactive in the world; 2) the characters are roleplaying and establishing their identity; 3) the players have just created a NPC that expands the world, 4) the players may have created that NPC through roleplaying, but that NPC is now mine to control. This aside is not too relevant to your point, but I do enjoy talking about Fate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7459168, member: 5142"] My take-away reading was the opposite here, though we likely refer to the same phenomenon. For me, this system makes world creation necessary - as in the process necessarily transpires - because it partially happens through the character creation process via playbooks. The major strength of this system is that it 1) alleviates some of the world-creation process from the GM, 2) it connects PCs to other PCs and NPCs through character creation, and 3) this process can also be used for the purpose of adventure creation in scenario packs. I get that some grognard GMs may buckle at this idea - "I am perfect GM worldbuilder and I have perfect group. We were doing this already! So this system is stupid." - but I have found that it makes for interesting fun from the perspective of discovery from the part of the GM. You can still make the world or setting, but the character creation process helps plug characters into that fairly easily. You are simply building around a tavern, which could be in a village or city. The players will create an NPC or location or two. And the GM will mostly be filling out the rest. So unless you are an autocratic control freak, then you are effectively losing minimal control over world creation. It has a price of $8 for the pdf on DriveThruRPG (and Further Afield at $5) plus a lot of free or pay-what-you-want content so it's far from a steep entry point. I would say that the use of [B]Playbooks[/B] is the big modern innovator. Though they are implemented differently in BtW from Powered by the Apocalypse-inspired games (e.g., Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark) the playbooks are mostly about providing players with an easy-access character concept who is not just a pre-gen. Your rolls expand your backstory and stats at the same time. So it is OSR "roll to discover your character" meets New School "plug-n-play". But the playbooks are [I]optional[/I]. (And this point also applies to your earlier bit on world creation.) There are rules for just rolling stats and sticking with the basic classes as written. So you can stick with the game-as-written but also take out everything else you don't like. There are also rules for using the 3e+ three saving throws instead. Super hackable game. [B]Freeform Skill System:[/B] There is not a set skill list. Players can pick their own "skills." Skills and ability checks operate as roll-under ability score to succeed, with skills raising your circumstantial ability score by +2 or +4 when making the relevant check. Actually most d20 mechanics are roll-under-ability score except saving throws and attack rolls. Someone on the BtW Google+ community also made a [URL="https://plus.google.com/113531853537076758150/posts/CLFKh3nap1g"]"Black Hack" of BtW[/URL] which simplifies the system even more, such as turning the five saving throws and attack rolls into simple roll-under ability checks, but it also uses advantage/disadvantage mechanics. It's as metagame as creating a new character with a backstory or leveling up in D&D. It mostly happens at character creation or between sessions. It is the GM who narrates the framing of scenes and the world with the players reacting. If something does not exist in the world, then the GM can say "no, that doesn't exist" or "no, that's not possible." In contrast, players can make up stuff about the world in Fate during play, but IME this mostly amounts to the players invoking a character aspect and being like "I know a guy from my time as part of [my aspect here]," "I know a way into this place because my time [insert aspect here]," or "Didn't you know? I learned to speak this language due to [aspect]." But I find that this process mostly happens in a character-facing way that does not come across as metagaming in the context of play. It's about the player asserting who their character is in the world and the character being proactive in the world. Let's take for example "I know a guy." How would this be potentially handled outside of Fate? The GM will likely say something akin to "you have not established knowing this person in your backstory, so they do not exist." The GM may also say, "We can discuss your backstory outside of play and decide then (but no)." Or the player may not be the one saying it, but the GM just tells the player, "you know a guy," which would be railroading the PCs to a set NPC. Or the PC may even say, "Yeah, but why or how do I know that guy? I never established that with you either." This can be absolutely frustrating from a player perspective because in their own head space of who the character is and their backstory, they absolutely would "know a guy for that" or have someone they could turn to in the world. This is often a roadblock I have witnessed that takes the player out of their character immersion. But here is the thing that I like about the Fate system here as a GM: 1) the player characters are being proactive in the world; 2) the characters are roleplaying and establishing their identity; 3) the players have just created a NPC that expands the world, 4) the players may have created that NPC through roleplaying, but that NPC is now mine to control. This aside is not too relevant to your point, but I do enjoy talking about Fate. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
Top