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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7461140" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>Truth of the matter is that I do not know what new attributes I would create, because I also think such things would depend on my design goals for the system, and I have not created a new system yet. I would prefer attributes/abilities with distinct and clear non-overlapping functionality, and <strong><a href="http://theangrygm.com/i-hate-ability-scores/" target="_blank">I agree with Angry DM</a></strong> that this is where D&D's Big Six fails hard. (This is also part of my dissatisfaction with some of Dungeon World's conservative design elements.) There are a lot of arguments, for example, about the distinctions between Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Both Charisma and Wisdom claim purview over willpower or even faith. These distinctions have changed in D&D. They are not set. And I don't think that it is any real perfection or marvel of design that we keep the Big Six but purely because we are trained by the familiarity of tradition. The nature of a stat seems to shift depending upon the needs of the metagame design(er). </p><p></p><p>If I was designing an OSR style system, I would prefer aiming for simplicity for ease of play. You would want to reduce explanation of what the attributes are so you can jump into character creation and gameplay. Probably either no skills (e.g., Black Hack) or no formal skill list (e.g., Beyond the Wall). I am intrigued by using a simple roll-under-attribute method that would be unified for attacks/defense, skills, and saving throws. </p><p></p><p>The question thereby becomes how many attributes are desired and what you would seek to emulate through the game mechanics of attributes. So you would likely need enough such that you can sufficiently differentiate characters. You provided a longer list with greater differentiation. And there are other such systems that opt to expand or "clarify" their sense of attributes: e.g., Fantasy Age (Accuracy, Communication, Constitution, Dexterity, Fighting, Intellect, Perception, Strength, Willpower) and now the new Warhammer RPG (Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, Agility, Dexterity, Intelligence, Willpower, Fellowship). But what if we went the other direction? Could one potentially do this with three stats? Sure. And I find such a simplification tempting for an OSR style game if our design goals harken back to the days of basic, streamlined gaming. </p><p></p><p><em>The Cypher System</em> uses "Might, Speed, Intellect." And a few other systems also using something akin to this: e.g., "Strength, Agility, and Intelligence." </p><p></p><p><em>The One Ring</em> uses (from what I recall) "Body, Heart, Wits." We could probably also include the similar schema of "Body, Mind, and Spirit." </p><p></p><p><em>Warrior, Rogue, & Mage</em> uses... wait for it... "Warrior, Rogue, and Mage" as the ranked attributes. This profession-oriented system reminds me of the Fate game Jadepunk that has players rank the professions "Aristocrat, Engineer, Explorer, Fighter, Scholar, and Scoundrel" as skill groups / attributes. </p><p></p><p>Firefly (Cortex system) uses "Physical, Mental, and Social." I usually lean on [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s greater familiarity with Cortex for greater clarity. </p><p></p><p>So I would possibly work with something like the above. Maybe expand it four, if I felt it would be suitable for the game design: e.g., Physical Power (Strength/Brawn), Physical Finesse (Dexterity/Agility), Mental Power (Spirit/Willpower), Mental Finesse (Wits/Intellect).</p><p></p><p>We could even play around with this schema. Just brainstorming off-the-cuff here. You could even entertain the possibility of using this four-attribute schema for other derived stats. Okay, so maybe Physical Power plus Mental Power equals your Hit Points, or how much Resolve/Mettle you have. Or your Physical Finesse plus Mental Finesse determines your initiative. Or your Mental Finesse plus Mental Power determines your Magic potential. It really just depends on what you want. Mix and match as desired. </p><p></p><p>So to answer your question, possibly 3-4 attributes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7461140, member: 5142"] Truth of the matter is that I do not know what new attributes I would create, because I also think such things would depend on my design goals for the system, and I have not created a new system yet. I would prefer attributes/abilities with distinct and clear non-overlapping functionality, and [B][URL="http://theangrygm.com/i-hate-ability-scores/"]I agree with Angry DM[/URL][/B] that this is where D&D's Big Six fails hard. (This is also part of my dissatisfaction with some of Dungeon World's conservative design elements.) There are a lot of arguments, for example, about the distinctions between Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Both Charisma and Wisdom claim purview over willpower or even faith. These distinctions have changed in D&D. They are not set. And I don't think that it is any real perfection or marvel of design that we keep the Big Six but purely because we are trained by the familiarity of tradition. The nature of a stat seems to shift depending upon the needs of the metagame design(er). If I was designing an OSR style system, I would prefer aiming for simplicity for ease of play. You would want to reduce explanation of what the attributes are so you can jump into character creation and gameplay. Probably either no skills (e.g., Black Hack) or no formal skill list (e.g., Beyond the Wall). I am intrigued by using a simple roll-under-attribute method that would be unified for attacks/defense, skills, and saving throws. The question thereby becomes how many attributes are desired and what you would seek to emulate through the game mechanics of attributes. So you would likely need enough such that you can sufficiently differentiate characters. You provided a longer list with greater differentiation. And there are other such systems that opt to expand or "clarify" their sense of attributes: e.g., Fantasy Age (Accuracy, Communication, Constitution, Dexterity, Fighting, Intellect, Perception, Strength, Willpower) and now the new Warhammer RPG (Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, Agility, Dexterity, Intelligence, Willpower, Fellowship). But what if we went the other direction? Could one potentially do this with three stats? Sure. And I find such a simplification tempting for an OSR style game if our design goals harken back to the days of basic, streamlined gaming. [I]The Cypher System[/I] uses "Might, Speed, Intellect." And a few other systems also using something akin to this: e.g., "Strength, Agility, and Intelligence." [I]The One Ring[/I] uses (from what I recall) "Body, Heart, Wits." We could probably also include the similar schema of "Body, Mind, and Spirit." [I]Warrior, Rogue, & Mage[/I] uses... wait for it... "Warrior, Rogue, and Mage" as the ranked attributes. This profession-oriented system reminds me of the Fate game Jadepunk that has players rank the professions "Aristocrat, Engineer, Explorer, Fighter, Scholar, and Scoundrel" as skill groups / attributes. Firefly (Cortex system) uses "Physical, Mental, and Social." I usually lean on [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s greater familiarity with Cortex for greater clarity. So I would possibly work with something like the above. Maybe expand it four, if I felt it would be suitable for the game design: e.g., Physical Power (Strength/Brawn), Physical Finesse (Dexterity/Agility), Mental Power (Spirit/Willpower), Mental Finesse (Wits/Intellect). We could even play around with this schema. Just brainstorming off-the-cuff here. You could even entertain the possibility of using this four-attribute schema for other derived stats. Okay, so maybe Physical Power plus Mental Power equals your Hit Points, or how much Resolve/Mettle you have. Or your Physical Finesse plus Mental Finesse determines your initiative. Or your Mental Finesse plus Mental Power determines your Magic potential. It really just depends on what you want. Mix and match as desired. So to answer your question, possibly 3-4 attributes. [/QUOTE]
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