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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7465382" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I see that you couldn't be bothered to read what I posted, as I made that exact observation that you're telling me I didn't do above. In the original post, all I said is that the poster was confusing abstractions with meta, which they did -- hitpoints are an abstraction but they aren't meta. The complaints made were about the abstract nature of hitpoints and didn't have any meta features. Strangely, you're here now telling me I am wrong for making the argument you just made. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wow. You need to dial it back. Saying that vice replacing my quote with that is slightly less offensive, but you're crossing the line. </p><p></p><p>I answered your question -- I cannot determine things about my character's current state based on a short scene description. I also said that knowing my character's recent and past history isn't metagame. Knowing my character's story in the fiction of the game -- that I trained as a fighter and that I've recently begun adventuring and that, just a few minutes ago, I was pressed hard by some goblins but won through are all in fiction things that inform me, the player, to the answers to your questions. The abstract mechanic of hp, which would provide me the player with more information about how hard those goblins pressed me is still just the abstract representation of the information my character, if alive in the world, would have but cannot be otherwise represented to me, the player. That's not meta -- in any sense (and I disagree with most of the definitions of meta in this thread, some are confusing stance and/or limited authorial agency with metagame mechanics). It's abstraction. </p><p></p><p>D&D hitpoints aren't meta. They don't represent information not available in game. The don't represent mechanics that exist outside the framework of the game. They just aren't meta. They're just an abstraction of the game's fictional process of combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As for you being able to guess about where the HP in Runequest 2 is from the information in your scene frame, that's entirely because Runequest 2 has descriptions for damage based on HP level baked into the system. You're using information from outside of your scene framing to make that determination -- information you deny other systems. "Dirty pool, old man."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7465382, member: 16814"] I see that you couldn't be bothered to read what I posted, as I made that exact observation that you're telling me I didn't do above. In the original post, all I said is that the poster was confusing abstractions with meta, which they did -- hitpoints are an abstraction but they aren't meta. The complaints made were about the abstract nature of hitpoints and didn't have any meta features. Strangely, you're here now telling me I am wrong for making the argument you just made. Wow. You need to dial it back. Saying that vice replacing my quote with that is slightly less offensive, but you're crossing the line. I answered your question -- I cannot determine things about my character's current state based on a short scene description. I also said that knowing my character's recent and past history isn't metagame. Knowing my character's story in the fiction of the game -- that I trained as a fighter and that I've recently begun adventuring and that, just a few minutes ago, I was pressed hard by some goblins but won through are all in fiction things that inform me, the player, to the answers to your questions. The abstract mechanic of hp, which would provide me the player with more information about how hard those goblins pressed me is still just the abstract representation of the information my character, if alive in the world, would have but cannot be otherwise represented to me, the player. That's not meta -- in any sense (and I disagree with most of the definitions of meta in this thread, some are confusing stance and/or limited authorial agency with metagame mechanics). It's abstraction. D&D hitpoints aren't meta. They don't represent information not available in game. The don't represent mechanics that exist outside the framework of the game. They just aren't meta. They're just an abstraction of the game's fictional process of combat. As for you being able to guess about where the HP in Runequest 2 is from the information in your scene frame, that's entirely because Runequest 2 has descriptions for damage based on HP level baked into the system. You're using information from outside of your scene framing to make that determination -- information you deny other systems. "Dirty pool, old man." [/QUOTE]
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