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A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7466855" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Does "loosely approximates real world physics" mean anything more than <em>dropped objects fall, but dragons can fly without magical assistance</em>?</p><p></p><p>Physics, in the real world, isn't just a list of facts. The discipline is a set of interrelated principles stated in mathematical terms; the phenomena those principles describe are things that follow certain regularities in behaviour and causal interaction.</p><p></p><p>Asserting that <em>the physics is just like the real world, except dragons can fly</em> is a contradiction, because there is no physics that resembles the real world's and yet in which creatures like dragons are able to fly as D&D dragons do.</p><p></p><p>That said, if sticking giant ants or flying dragons in the rules is enough to create, for you, an exception to your (or anyone else's) "real world physics" principle, then why don't second-winding fighters equally count? Why would that, in particular, have to be magical?</p><p></p><p>But the game already does this! Gravity doesn't bring dragons crashing to the ground, nor crush the legs of giants; so it already works differently from what we're used to! And you said as much yourself, in the passage I quoted just above.</p><p></p><p>Really? Out of curiosity, when did you do anything in your gameworld design or adjudication that required applying universal gravitation, Maxwell's equations, thermodynamics, or nuclear physics?</p><p></p><p>Personally, I've never seen a gameworld (whether amateur or professional in design) that required more than a bit of understanding of geography.</p><p></p><p>But we don't except the principles of gravity and/or fluid mechanics to work as they do in our world - because if they did, dragons couldn't fly. And nor do we expect the biochemistry and/or physics of respiration to work as they do in our world - because if they did, giant arthropods would be impossible.</p><p></p><p>Given this - and given that "surges" and "second winds" are things that actual athletes actually do in the real world, by drawing on their reserves - why would we be that shocked to see warriors who can perform surges and get their second wind, but then need a bit of a rest before they can do it again?</p><p></p><p>You may not like the aesthetic, just as some people don't like the aesthetic of flying dragons or Cloudkill spells or katanas or whatever - but I'm missing the argument that these things <em>must</em> be metagame.</p><p></p><p>I read this after writing the above. I think the above still stands in relation to giant arthropods. And the most recent quote also raises the question of why dragons don't fall to the ground under the effects of an Anti-Magic Shell or similar.</p><p></p><p>Even in this thread, as best I can tell there are many who regard a dragon's fight or a giant scorpion's respiration as non-magical.</p><p></p><p>To the extent that we talk about "cinematic", I don't see how that would fail to encompass surges and second winds without these having to be metagame.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Look, you and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] are the ones who mentioned <em>nuclear forces</em>. Someone else upthread who is not me mentioned <em>atoms</em>. These are not things that "have been known since man started walking". They are "pointy headed theories".</p><p></p><p>My own view, clearly stated multiple times in this thread, is that D&D needs nothing more than common sense tropes. And choosing to surge, or getting one's second wind, is a common sense trope. I'm not much of an athlete, and even I have the capacity to push myself harder in a way that I can't keep up for very long.</p><p></p><p>No one has said they are arbitrary. They have said that your professed reasoning seems underdeveloped.</p><p></p><p>For instance, how would the following lead anyone to conclude that you don't like action surge or second wind?</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>Being able to draw on one's reserves to surge and/or get a second wind seems exactly the sort of thing that athletes in a "cinematic reality" would be able to do (given that athletes in the real world can do it, or stuff pretty much like it).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7466855, member: 42582"] Does "loosely approximates real world physics" mean anything more than [I]dropped objects fall, but dragons can fly without magical assistance[/I]? Physics, in the real world, isn't just a list of facts. The discipline is a set of interrelated principles stated in mathematical terms; the phenomena those principles describe are things that follow certain regularities in behaviour and causal interaction. Asserting that [I]the physics is just like the real world, except dragons can fly[/I] is a contradiction, because there is no physics that resembles the real world's and yet in which creatures like dragons are able to fly as D&D dragons do. That said, if sticking giant ants or flying dragons in the rules is enough to create, for you, an exception to your (or anyone else's) "real world physics" principle, then why don't second-winding fighters equally count? Why would that, in particular, have to be magical? But the game already does this! Gravity doesn't bring dragons crashing to the ground, nor crush the legs of giants; so it already works differently from what we're used to! And you said as much yourself, in the passage I quoted just above. Really? Out of curiosity, when did you do anything in your gameworld design or adjudication that required applying universal gravitation, Maxwell's equations, thermodynamics, or nuclear physics? Personally, I've never seen a gameworld (whether amateur or professional in design) that required more than a bit of understanding of geography. But we don't except the principles of gravity and/or fluid mechanics to work as they do in our world - because if they did, dragons couldn't fly. And nor do we expect the biochemistry and/or physics of respiration to work as they do in our world - because if they did, giant arthropods would be impossible. Given this - and given that "surges" and "second winds" are things that actual athletes actually do in the real world, by drawing on their reserves - why would we be that shocked to see warriors who can perform surges and get their second wind, but then need a bit of a rest before they can do it again? You may not like the aesthetic, just as some people don't like the aesthetic of flying dragons or Cloudkill spells or katanas or whatever - but I'm missing the argument that these things [I]must[/I] be metagame. I read this after writing the above. I think the above still stands in relation to giant arthropods. And the most recent quote also raises the question of why dragons don't fall to the ground under the effects of an Anti-Magic Shell or similar. Even in this thread, as best I can tell there are many who regard a dragon's fight or a giant scorpion's respiration as non-magical. To the extent that we talk about "cinematic", I don't see how that would fail to encompass surges and second winds without these having to be metagame. Look, you and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] are the ones who mentioned [I]nuclear forces[/I]. Someone else upthread who is not me mentioned [I]atoms[/I]. These are not things that "have been known since man started walking". They are "pointy headed theories". My own view, clearly stated multiple times in this thread, is that D&D needs nothing more than common sense tropes. And choosing to surge, or getting one's second wind, is a common sense trope. I'm not much of an athlete, and even I have the capacity to push myself harder in a way that I can't keep up for very long. No one has said they are arbitrary. They have said that your professed reasoning seems underdeveloped. For instance, how would the following lead anyone to conclude that you don't like action surge or second wind? [indent][/indent] Being able to draw on one's reserves to surge and/or get a second wind seems exactly the sort of thing that athletes in a "cinematic reality" would be able to do (given that athletes in the real world can do it, or stuff pretty much like it). [/QUOTE]
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