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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7567741" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I own and have read rulebooks for both DitV and DW, but have never GMed either and have not played DitV at all.</p><p></p><p>I would like to GM DitV - not as a western but reflavouring as some sort of paladin-esque thing - and have thought about how the prep rules would work with my preferred style of play. It doesn't surprise me that you have found it challenging in actuality - to me it looks challenging when I think about how I would do it.</p><p></p><p>An intereseting feature of the DitV rulebook is the bit where Vincent talks about GM techniques for revealing the information about the town, and who is sinning in reltaion to whom, etc. He contrasts the proper approach for DitV with a more traditional approach where the GM doesn't reveal the secret information until the players declare the right sorts of actions to "naturalistically" uncover it. Speaking a bit loosely, and also without the benefit of actual play experience, I would say that the advice for the DitV GM is to treat the whole town as something like a framed scene, with the information being revealed by the GM to the player by way of presenting the situation - and hence as an input into action declaration - rather than the information being something that will be revealed to the players as part of the output of action resolution. I've tried to use a similar sort of approach in my Traveller game, although it hasn't got the same intricacy, nor the moral/dramatic heft, of DitV's sin-ridden towns.</p><p></p><p>With regard to DW and secret doors, it seems to me that if a player delcares that his/her PC is searching for secret doors then that would probably be Discern Realities (perhaps Spout Lore if the players approach is to reflect on his/her PC's knowledge of architecture and engineering) - which if it succeeds doens't grant the <em>player</em> the authority to establish a secret door as part of the backstory. This is a contrast with (say) Burning Wheel, where a player can declare: <em>I am searcing the wall for signs of secret doors, drawing on my architectural training</em> and then the GM sets a DC for the Architecture skill check - if the check succeeds, intent and task both succeed so the PC identifies an architecturally discernible secret door; if the check fails, the GM narrates some salient adverse consequence instead (eg mabye the archtiectral feature the PC noticed is actually the trigger for a trap!).</p><p></p><p>EDIT: More stuff along the same lines in reply to this subsequent post:</p><p></p><p>In classic D&D, <em>I look for a secret door</em> is a permissible action declaration. But it is not normally resolved via application of "say 'yes' or roll the dice". The GM is entitled to declare the attempt to find a secret door a failure without calling on the rolling of dice.</p><p></p><p>Maybe your phrase <em>action declaration by players in the present situation</em> is meant to cover this - a secet door is not part of the present situation, because the GM's notes say the wall is solid wihout doors (secret or otherwise) - but then (trying to stick to my interpretation of your terminology) you get a dynamic of game play where the players are never quite sure what action declartions are genuinely feasible in the "exploration" parts of the game, because the GM does not make all the important elements of the situation overt in his/her framing.</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that this is what Vincent is getting at in his advice in DitV about revealing secrets - he is trying to avoid this sort of circumstance, where some action declarations will just fail because the present situation doesn't allow for them because of secret elements the GM hasn't revealed.</p><p></p><p>Well, that sort of game - eg 2nd ed AD&D - probably can't be run applying "say 'yes' or roll the dice"!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7567741, member: 42582"] I own and have read rulebooks for both DitV and DW, but have never GMed either and have not played DitV at all. I would like to GM DitV - not as a western but reflavouring as some sort of paladin-esque thing - and have thought about how the prep rules would work with my preferred style of play. It doesn't surprise me that you have found it challenging in actuality - to me it looks challenging when I think about how I would do it. An intereseting feature of the DitV rulebook is the bit where Vincent talks about GM techniques for revealing the information about the town, and who is sinning in reltaion to whom, etc. He contrasts the proper approach for DitV with a more traditional approach where the GM doesn't reveal the secret information until the players declare the right sorts of actions to "naturalistically" uncover it. Speaking a bit loosely, and also without the benefit of actual play experience, I would say that the advice for the DitV GM is to treat the whole town as something like a framed scene, with the information being revealed by the GM to the player by way of presenting the situation - and hence as an input into action declaration - rather than the information being something that will be revealed to the players as part of the output of action resolution. I've tried to use a similar sort of approach in my Traveller game, although it hasn't got the same intricacy, nor the moral/dramatic heft, of DitV's sin-ridden towns. With regard to DW and secret doors, it seems to me that if a player delcares that his/her PC is searching for secret doors then that would probably be Discern Realities (perhaps Spout Lore if the players approach is to reflect on his/her PC's knowledge of architecture and engineering) - which if it succeeds doens't grant the [I]player[/I] the authority to establish a secret door as part of the backstory. This is a contrast with (say) Burning Wheel, where a player can declare: [I]I am searcing the wall for signs of secret doors, drawing on my architectural training[/i] and then the GM sets a DC for the Architecture skill check - if the check succeeds, intent and task both succeed so the PC identifies an architecturally discernible secret door; if the check fails, the GM narrates some salient adverse consequence instead (eg mabye the archtiectral feature the PC noticed is actually the trigger for a trap!). EDIT: More stuff along the same lines in reply to this subsequent post: In classic D&D, [I]I look for a secret door[/I] is a permissible action declaration. But it is not normally resolved via application of "say 'yes' or roll the dice". The GM is entitled to declare the attempt to find a secret door a failure without calling on the rolling of dice. Maybe your phrase [I]action declaration by players in the present situation[/I] is meant to cover this - a secet door is not part of the present situation, because the GM's notes say the wall is solid wihout doors (secret or otherwise) - but then (trying to stick to my interpretation of your terminology) you get a dynamic of game play where the players are never quite sure what action declartions are genuinely feasible in the "exploration" parts of the game, because the GM does not make all the important elements of the situation overt in his/her framing. It seems to me that this is what Vincent is getting at in his advice in DitV about revealing secrets - he is trying to avoid this sort of circumstance, where some action declarations will just fail because the present situation doesn't allow for them because of secret elements the GM hasn't revealed. Well, that sort of game - eg 2nd ed AD&D - probably can't be run applying "say 'yes' or roll the dice"! [/QUOTE]
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