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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7572932" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Same here; and because I've got 40-ish years to do whatever I don't feel all that much pressure to do it all right now. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I sail Sunday evenings, in theory starting at 7:30 but most often starting a bit after 8 (our crew in general aren't known as a punctual lot), and we go till midnight or sometimes later if we're all into it - particularly if the following day is a holiday Monday.</p><p></p><p>I want people to have fun, but that can happen without me-as-DM having to ratchet up the drama factor.</p><p></p><p>A silly - but then, maybe not so silly - example from the game I play in: the session before last was largely taken up by one character playing an ongoing prank (involving another PC's castle which is our home base, and lots of pink paint) during downtime and other characters reacting to said prank. Did this advance the story in any form? No, not a whit. Did it allow us to do a bunch of in-character role-playing? Hell yeah. Were we all enjoying the entertainment? Sure seemed like it! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>And the DM could mostly sit back and enjoy the ride.</p><p></p><p>I don't see this sort of in-character action as "mathematical optimisation"; that's more a term I use for out-of-character min-maxing and that sort of thing that grants anumeric game-mechanical advantage at the table..</p><p></p><p>Perhaps a better term for what I'm thinking of might be "fictional optimization", where the in-fiction actions are done in an attempt to gain an in-fiction advantage (and where, depending on system, numeric game mechanics might only peripherially enter into it, if at all). But that said...</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that everyone (or every character) is going to act rationally all the time. Hell, I'm the poster child for characters doing rash things - it's been said that most of the time the biggest threat to my characters is their player and it's not entirely untrue. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>But assuming a player with a bit more patience than me and a character with a wisdom score higher than that of a shoe, when given the choice between the safe methodical approach and the rash risky approach one would think the safe methodical approach would - all other things being equal - be chosen most of the time; and it's then on the DM to adjudicate and determine results via whatever means the system in use provides.</p><p></p><p>You say the safe methodical approach isn't realistic: I posit that it's far more realistic - in terms of what most real people would be likely to do, assuming their intention is to succeed at their goal - than the rash risky approach. And, in the example given the PC can always quietly bail on the whole idea if the library research indicates she hasn't got a chance of success <em>before</em> she sticks her neck out and paints a target on herself.</p><p></p><p>Again, though, this is a film. A film is designed to entertain a passive non-participating audience who have paid to be there, and thus is expected to deliver. Also, the participants in the film (i.e. the actors, directors, and all the other names in the credits) are remote from the audience both in time and space (different to a stage play where the active participants are in the same room - or close - at the same time as the audience). And a film almost always has a written script being used to tell a predetermined story.</p><p></p><p>A sequel to said film not only has to do this but it really has to do it better than the first film, as to entertain to just the same level as the first will leave (most of) the audience disappointed. It's the whole "how do we top this?" syndrome.</p><p></p><p>An RPG is vastly different. First off, in most cases the participants and the audience are the same people, which means the entertainment has to be provided by and to the same people simultaneously. Second, most parts of an RPG are unscripted in the here-and-now with the exception of either a) a DM reading boxed text or providing expository narration, or b) a player reading out prepared elements of her character's background or pre-story. Some DMs do try to script the bigger picture to some degree, with varying degrees of success based on a bunch of factors too long to list here, but what happens at the table is rarely if ever fully scripted.</p><p></p><p>I've wandered off my original point, so let me return to the path. "If everything's dramatic, nothing is" means that if there's drama all the time it'll tend to plateau and, as we know from the movie-sequel example, plateau-ing leads to a disappointed audience. So, you're stuck with always trying to top whatever you did before, which is of course unsustainable beyond the very short term.</p><p></p><p>What's the answer? Back off on the drama until and unless it's needed.</p><p></p><p>Much of this depends on the knights' underlying motive for marrying a noblewoman as opposed to a commoner or anyone else. </p><p></p><p>Is the motive only to marry into nobility whatever it takes? If yes, then collecting lists of eligible ladies, learning about their families, and going for the best odds makes perfect sense. Result is ultimately binary - you either marry a noblewoman at some point or you don't.</p><p></p><p>Is the motive to marry for love? If yes, then the second approach holds sway: you do your knightly deeds, put yourself out there where various ladies can see you and see if any mutual attractions develop. The risk here, of course, is that the mutual attraction ends up being with a commoner; so you get the love you want but lose the nobility angle. This adds more possible end-result outcomes that may or may not be counted as complete success:</p><p></p><p>Marry nobody (worst case)</p><p>Marry a commoner for love</p><p>Marry a noblewoman without love</p><p>Marry a noblewoman for love (best case)</p><p></p><p>See above re time, audience expectations, etc.</p><p></p><p>A film is only going to show you the highlights of the charaters' lives as they relate to that specific story, mostly because it doesn't have time to show anything else.</p><p></p><p>It will suffer. Maybe not in the first session, or even the first half-dozen; but to try and keep that level of drama going for 100 or 200 or 500 sessions is simply unsustainable. In an RPG you do (in theory!) have time to delve into the day-to-day of the characters' lives if you want to; you can explore their backgrounds and personalities and quirks in a depth that no film can ever provide; you can (and in fact rather have to) manage their resources and finances and so forth on an ongoing basis; and you can make your own decisions as to how your PC is going to interact with the other PCs and with the game world around it/them and then follow up on these decisions in as much depth and detail as you like.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7572932, member: 29398"] Same here; and because I've got 40-ish years to do whatever I don't feel all that much pressure to do it all right now. :) I sail Sunday evenings, in theory starting at 7:30 but most often starting a bit after 8 (our crew in general aren't known as a punctual lot), and we go till midnight or sometimes later if we're all into it - particularly if the following day is a holiday Monday. I want people to have fun, but that can happen without me-as-DM having to ratchet up the drama factor. A silly - but then, maybe not so silly - example from the game I play in: the session before last was largely taken up by one character playing an ongoing prank (involving another PC's castle which is our home base, and lots of pink paint) during downtime and other characters reacting to said prank. Did this advance the story in any form? No, not a whit. Did it allow us to do a bunch of in-character role-playing? Hell yeah. Were we all enjoying the entertainment? Sure seemed like it! :) And the DM could mostly sit back and enjoy the ride. I don't see this sort of in-character action as "mathematical optimisation"; that's more a term I use for out-of-character min-maxing and that sort of thing that grants anumeric game-mechanical advantage at the table.. Perhaps a better term for what I'm thinking of might be "fictional optimization", where the in-fiction actions are done in an attempt to gain an in-fiction advantage (and where, depending on system, numeric game mechanics might only peripherially enter into it, if at all). But that said... I'm not saying that everyone (or every character) is going to act rationally all the time. Hell, I'm the poster child for characters doing rash things - it's been said that most of the time the biggest threat to my characters is their player and it's not entirely untrue. :) But assuming a player with a bit more patience than me and a character with a wisdom score higher than that of a shoe, when given the choice between the safe methodical approach and the rash risky approach one would think the safe methodical approach would - all other things being equal - be chosen most of the time; and it's then on the DM to adjudicate and determine results via whatever means the system in use provides. You say the safe methodical approach isn't realistic: I posit that it's far more realistic - in terms of what most real people would be likely to do, assuming their intention is to succeed at their goal - than the rash risky approach. And, in the example given the PC can always quietly bail on the whole idea if the library research indicates she hasn't got a chance of success [I]before[/I] she sticks her neck out and paints a target on herself. Again, though, this is a film. A film is designed to entertain a passive non-participating audience who have paid to be there, and thus is expected to deliver. Also, the participants in the film (i.e. the actors, directors, and all the other names in the credits) are remote from the audience both in time and space (different to a stage play where the active participants are in the same room - or close - at the same time as the audience). And a film almost always has a written script being used to tell a predetermined story. A sequel to said film not only has to do this but it really has to do it better than the first film, as to entertain to just the same level as the first will leave (most of) the audience disappointed. It's the whole "how do we top this?" syndrome. An RPG is vastly different. First off, in most cases the participants and the audience are the same people, which means the entertainment has to be provided by and to the same people simultaneously. Second, most parts of an RPG are unscripted in the here-and-now with the exception of either a) a DM reading boxed text or providing expository narration, or b) a player reading out prepared elements of her character's background or pre-story. Some DMs do try to script the bigger picture to some degree, with varying degrees of success based on a bunch of factors too long to list here, but what happens at the table is rarely if ever fully scripted. I've wandered off my original point, so let me return to the path. "If everything's dramatic, nothing is" means that if there's drama all the time it'll tend to plateau and, as we know from the movie-sequel example, plateau-ing leads to a disappointed audience. So, you're stuck with always trying to top whatever you did before, which is of course unsustainable beyond the very short term. What's the answer? Back off on the drama until and unless it's needed. Much of this depends on the knights' underlying motive for marrying a noblewoman as opposed to a commoner or anyone else. Is the motive only to marry into nobility whatever it takes? If yes, then collecting lists of eligible ladies, learning about their families, and going for the best odds makes perfect sense. Result is ultimately binary - you either marry a noblewoman at some point or you don't. Is the motive to marry for love? If yes, then the second approach holds sway: you do your knightly deeds, put yourself out there where various ladies can see you and see if any mutual attractions develop. The risk here, of course, is that the mutual attraction ends up being with a commoner; so you get the love you want but lose the nobility angle. This adds more possible end-result outcomes that may or may not be counted as complete success: Marry nobody (worst case) Marry a commoner for love Marry a noblewoman without love Marry a noblewoman for love (best case) See above re time, audience expectations, etc. A film is only going to show you the highlights of the charaters' lives as they relate to that specific story, mostly because it doesn't have time to show anything else. It will suffer. Maybe not in the first session, or even the first half-dozen; but to try and keep that level of drama going for 100 or 200 or 500 sessions is simply unsustainable. In an RPG you do (in theory!) have time to delve into the day-to-day of the characters' lives if you want to; you can explore their backgrounds and personalities and quirks in a depth that no film can ever provide; you can (and in fact rather have to) manage their resources and finances and so forth on an ongoing basis; and you can make your own decisions as to how your PC is going to interact with the other PCs and with the game world around it/them and then follow up on these decisions in as much depth and detail as you like. [/QUOTE]
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